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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#111

Post by mc32 »

Sir_Substance wrote: post #105

I would like to remind everyone that the US gun ownership rate is not the cause of US gun crime. A key assertion of this article is that guncrime is high because guns are common, and thus police have a somewhat justified reason to shoot first to defend themselves. I would like to remind everyone that ownership of a military assault rifle is mandatory for 2/3rds of all men between 20 and 34 in Switzerland, and the rif…

The Swiss may have one of the highest rates of firearms at home but almost no ammunition is held at home. Previously the militia stored ammo at home, but it was strictly audited and missing ammo would get the person in potentially serious trouble.

So, while they have arms, the arms are in effect, disarmed.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#112

Post by jqm »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #109
jqm wrote: post #107

I see part of the problem being an extreme lack of civility in our society. At one point I suppose the police felt they were members of the community. So they treated people with some measure of respect and dignity while carrying out their duties. They would see these same people at church, at the store, at baseball games, at funerals etc. So it was different. Now, the police are often unreasonably rude and hostile i…

This is a red herring. I lived around the KS City area for a year and people walking in the middle of the street intentionally obstructing traffic was a thing that happened on a regular basis. They walk in the street while you're driving and glare at you, basically trying to prove they can make you do their will by having to drive around them just walking there. Civility is already gone at that point, it is willful,…

Indeed. Both parties are guilty of basic lack of civility (a point which I note).

But one party is (in theory), a professional state agent, paid at least in part by the other. (Sounds like you didn't quite make it to the bottom of my post.....).

I'm not quite catching your point... it seems to be that Brown was acting up so it was acceptable for Wilson to act as he did. And if that is your point I don't agree. At all. And no, this isn't a "red herring". It is an often overlooked point that is entirely relevant to the issue. The behavior and general attitude of police officers sometimes helps cause these types of situations.

Also you say I can't blame Brown for being partially responsible for his own death? I can't blame Wilson for inflaming the situation? Oh yes I can. On both points. And I would be right. Not sure why you would say this......

My point is... we would all be better served if officers behaved in a more respectful manner. So ultimately would they. That people walked around cocky in the street and annoyed you is irrelevant to this simple fact. Two wrongs don't make a right. And one party, in particular, should definitely be expected to be above this behavior. We should demand it.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#113

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

hellbanner wrote: post #24
moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

It's tax evasion. They buy them in Jersey or something and import them into NYC illegally. They can't just sell packs of cigarettes over the counter because they lack a tax-stamp or something.

Edit: I mean, it's for the children of course. /s

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#114

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

meowface wrote: post #55
callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

Can't say I blame the cop for any of that. 2 blocks is plenty long enough to get into an accident. And he has no other choice if you're driving on a suspended license.

>And he has no other choice if you're driving on a suspended license.

He has a choice.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#115

Post by angersock »

rayiner wrote: post #95
angersock wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, read the case: they are literally not required to do their jobs--in contrast with the other professions you listed.

Sigh . The word "duty" as used in the case is a term of art in tort law. It doesn't just mean you have a generic obligation to do your job, as it does in common parlance, but it means you can be legally liable for someone's damages in a tort lawsuit. If programmers had a "duty" to do their jobs, most software companies would have been sued out of existence. Software companies would get sued over every bug that caused…

Thanks for the clarification.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#116

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

tptacek wrote: post #74
joesmo wrote: post #4

How about also ending grand juries altogether (or at least in cases of potential homicide)? It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury ). In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants.…

How exactly does eliminating grand juries help with out-of-control law enforcement? Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused . Do they work in practice? No. But eliminating them concedes the problem to the prosecution entirely. You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.

>Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused. Do they work in practice? No.

Grand Juries have an especially hard time finding anything wrong with police conduct and are routinely used to "legitimize" questionable police activity.

I'm not ready to agree to eliminating them but it isn't hard to understand why someone might throw it out there as an idea.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#117

Post by dllthomas »

mc32 wrote: post #111
Sir_Substance wrote: post #105

I would like to remind everyone that the US gun ownership rate is not the cause of US gun crime. A key assertion of this article is that guncrime is high because guns are common, and thus police have a somewhat justified reason to shoot first to defend themselves. I would like to remind everyone that ownership of a military assault rifle is mandatory for 2/3rds of all men between 20 and 34 in Switzerland, and the rif…

The Swiss may have one of the highest rates of firearms at home but almost no ammunition is held at home. Previously the militia stored ammo at home, but it was strictly audited and missing ammo would get the person in potentially serious trouble. So, while they have arms, the arms are in effect, disarmed.

Do you have a source for this?

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#118

Post by A_COMPUTER »

jqm wrote: post #112
A_COMPUTER wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a red herring. I lived around the KS City area for a year and people walking in the middle of the street intentionally obstructing traffic was a thing that happened on a regular basis. They walk in the street while you're driving and glare at you, basically trying to prove they can make you do their will by having to drive around them just walking there. Civility is already gone at that point, it is willful,…

Indeed. Both parties are guilty of basic lack of civility (a point which I note). But one party is (in theory), a professional state agent, paid at least in part by the other. (Sounds like you didn't quite make it to the bottom of my post.....). I'm not quite catching your point... it seems to be that Brown was acting up so it was acceptable for Wilson to act as he did. And if that is your point I don't agree. At all…

I didn't say you could "blame" either one of them. I said that you are being inconsistent by only attributing total responsibility for escalating a situation that resulted in the confrontation to one party. The fact that Wilson was a professional and Brown wasn't doesn't change that fact, in fact not a single thing said I thought he shouldn't be punished. You are saying "Wilson didn't act within his responsibility." Well, what about Brown breaking the law by walking in the middle of the road? He had a responsibility to not do that, even if he is not a "professional." "Wilson should be held to a higher standard as an officer of the law." Indeed he should, but none of that excuses Brown for escalating it further. Again, there is a very simple calculus that goes into this: if you enter into a confrontation with a police officer, you are not going to win--and this is not underhanded justification for Brown's execution, but the basic fact that the law officer holds all the power. They both can provoke each other, but the costs are much higher for one party than the other. If you think a cop is being a dick to you, recognize that right or wrong, he has the power to kill you and get away with it. I understand your point. I reject it.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#119

Post by [deleted] »

mc32 wrote: post #111
Sir_Substance wrote: post #105

I would like to remind everyone that the US gun ownership rate is not the cause of US gun crime. A key assertion of this article is that guncrime is high because guns are common, and thus police have a somewhat justified reason to shoot first to defend themselves. I would like to remind everyone that ownership of a military assault rifle is mandatory for 2/3rds of all men between 20 and 34 in Switzerland, and the rif…

The Swiss may have one of the highest rates of firearms at home but almost no ammunition is held at home. Previously the militia stored ammo at home, but it was strictly audited and missing ammo would get the person in potentially serious trouble. So, while they have arms, the arms are in effect, disarmed.

[deleted]

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#120

Post by Veratyr »

dllthomas wrote: post #117
mc32 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Swiss may have one of the highest rates of firearms at home but almost no ammunition is held at home. Previously the militia stored ammo at home, but it was strictly audited and missing ammo would get the person in potentially serious trouble. So, while they have arms, the arms are in effect, disarmed.

Do you have a source for this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912

> "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007.

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