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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#91

Post by refurb »

rayiner wrote: post #83
refurb wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. When looking at stats like these, they hide the fact that homicides are not distributed equally across a country. The US has a high murder rate, but it is very localized not only in certain cities, but certain parts of cities. Outside of those areas the homicide rate is vanishingly low.

I wouldn't say "vanishingly low." In the wealthy suburban county where I grew up, the homicide rate was roughly comparable to London. Four U.S. states have a murder rate lower than the U.K.: http://libertarianhome.co.uk/2012/12/uk-murder-rate-higher-t... . Aside from Hawaii, those states have almost no major urban centers to speak of, in comparison to the U.K. which is dense and urban. Alabama, Mississippi, North Dak…

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#92

Post by angersock »

superuser2 wrote: post #89
angersock wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When police fixate on the criminal thing, what's often going on is an implicit assumption that once someone has an interaction with a suspect, it's just inevitable that the suspect will attack. See how that works? As for the rest, go look up Warren vs. District of Columbia . The police are not there to serve and protect.

Then programmers are not there to write good software, firefighters are not there to fight fires, doctors are not there to cure diseases, etc. There is a huge difference between being "there" to do something, and going to prison or paying out a massive judgement because you weren't successful.

No, read the case: they are literally not required to do their jobs--in contrast with the other professions you listed.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#93

Post by ScottBurson »

rayiner wrote: post #61
ScottBurson wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grand juries don't seem to correct the most egregious errors in either direction. Consider the famous assertion that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. On the other hand, consider the recent non-indictment of Darren Wilson. How often do grand juries defy the prosecutor's wishes? I certainly agree that a check on prosecutorial discretion is badly needed. But the grand jury system doesn't seem…

Aggregated statistics on grand juries are hard to come by, but let's use a random county for example: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/special-reports/article396... . Grand juries in Tarrant County, Texas declined to indict 11% of felony cases. Floating around the internet, you can find numbers ranging from 3-4% in New York counties to 5% in Texas as a whole. The high rate of indictments, of course, doesn't prove th…

Thanks for the numbers. I agree that 3-5% doesn't necessarily seem too low. And of course the stats don't show the number of indictments that were not sought because the prosecutor didn't think they had enough evidence even for a grand jury.

Still, the "ham sandwich" comment disturbs me. Do you think it has no basis in reality? Considering the emphasis we put on adversarial proceedings in this country, does it not seem odd and potentially problematic that grand juries hear only one side?

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#94

Post by Crito »

elwaz wrote: post #85
fidotron wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Gun control generally is something a lot of Brits just default to thinking is a necessary thing, while not actually having considered it in much depth. (This is largely a reflex to the Dunblane incident, and they can't understand why anyone would disagree with the resulting course of action). The thing is both sides are kind of wrong. London has far more gun crime than much of the US does (personally I ran into…

"London has far more gun crime than much of the US does" Can we get a figure to back that up please? The MET places gun crime figures in greater London at 1570 ( http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/ ) with a population of approx 8 million. Which American populations would you compare this to and what are their figures? I've spent a significant amount of time in London and have never once run into any firearms incid…

There is no shortage of small communities across America that have not had a gun crime in decades. Zero stays zero, even when you make it per-capita.

Whether or not this is a fair comparison is another matter.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#95

Post by rayiner »

angersock wrote: post #92
superuser2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then programmers are not there to write good software, firefighters are not there to fight fires, doctors are not there to cure diseases, etc. There is a huge difference between being "there" to do something, and going to prison or paying out a massive judgement because you weren't successful.

No, read the case: they are literally not required to do their jobs--in contrast with the other professions you listed.

Sigh.

The word "duty" as used in the case is a term of art in tort law. It doesn't just mean you have a generic obligation to do your job, as it does in common parlance, but it means you can be legally liable for someone's damages in a tort lawsuit.

If programmers had a "duty" to do their jobs, most software companies would have been sued out of existence. Software companies would get sued over every bug that caused people to lose time or money, and would be liable not just for the purchase price of the software, but if they were found to be negligent in writing-in that bug, would be liable for the actual damage suffered.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#96

Post by RealGeek »

moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

Several eye witnesses say that he was not selling cigarettes when he was arrested. The cops suspected him because of his previous history of selling cigarettes.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#97

Post by mynameishere »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #63

If you need proof that police in America are out-of-control thugs you only need to look at this shocking photo from Oakland last night: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Undercover-cops-outed-... In which an out-of-uniform CHP officer is brandishing a gun in the face of a photographer while another plain-dressed CHP officers wearing a bandana over his face tackles a protester. These cops had no reason to be in th…

http://imgur.com/gallery/QSyWdcy

Sorry for laughing. I'm really amazed that every single Simpsons reference has an imgur link already made. But you're right--that guy needs canned.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#98

Post by MarkMc »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #38

I've been reading the Economist for 20+ years now and it never ceases to amaze me that while there is some excellent journalism, they really don't get the United States. Statements like "If America did not have 300m guns in circulation, much of this would change." show their bias, rather than having anything to do with the way the US turns everything - drugs, immigration, poverty - into a policing issue infused with…

Those vehicles may be mine-resistant, but perhaps your police department is buying them primarily because they are bullet-resistant?

Clearly, arresting a suspected drug dealer is far more dangerous in the US than in the UK - and widespread gun ownership is a reasonable explanation for that diference.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#99

Post by [deleted] »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #80
ericd wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you use an explicit throwaway account to post crappy comments? You clearly know it's a crappy comment. Why post it?

This is my only account! Anyway I'm not even trying to make crappy comments. I'm trying to point out the absurdity of the parent's self-entitled windshield perspective. His entire complaint can be condensed to "I don't like the police because after I repeatedly broke the law and ignored the process of justice, they had the temerity to tow my car." That's ridiculous. People need to take responsibility for their own ac…

[deleted]

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#100

Post by thret »

johnsea wrote: post #33

> 300m guns in circulation... what wonder that people get shot. [Edit: what wonder I get downvoted, kind of expected this]

John Oliver on Gun Control (just a huge brag for Australia)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk...

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