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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#71

Post by refurb »

TillE wrote: post #11

One problem among many is that US police are both allowed and trained to use deadly force very quickly, when under any kind of threat. German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife. It's a common American meme that when police fire a gun, the only rational decision is to shoot to kill, but it's just not true.

German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife.

From what I've read very few police officers have the time to selectively shoot someone. If deadly force is called for, you aim for the center of the person.

Also, shooting to injure rather than kill is not exactly easy. If you take a bullet in a major artery in a leg or an arm, you can bleed out just as quickly as a bullet to the chest.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#72

Post by refurb »

rayiner wrote: post #70
refurb wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1993-94, years where the per-capita murder rate in the U.S. was 9x higher than in the U.K., It's important to keep in mind that murder rates are pretty low in general (save for a handful of countries). It's only when you compare countries to each other that the differences seem large. In 1993-1994 Canada's murder rate was double that of the UKs. I wouldn't, by an stretch of the imagination say that Canada had a mu…

They're low in the sense that any given person is unlikely to be personally murdered. They're not low in the sense that the impact of the crime on the community can't be felt. I used to live in Wilmington, DE, where 0.038% of people in the city get murdered each year. Vanishingly small odds, to be sure, but high enough where in the year I lived there several scary incidents "hit close to home." There was someone gunn…

I agree. When looking at stats like these, they hide the fact that homicides are not distributed equally across a country.

The US has a high murder rate, but it is very localized not only in certain cities, but certain parts of cities. Outside of those areas the homicide rate is vanishingly low.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#73

Post by tptacek »

callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

That problem isn't in-the-field law enforcement; it's how the state manages its compliance bureaucracy. I have the same problem; I get pulled over rarely, but any time I do, I worry that I might be suspended. I drove on a suspended license so long once that they gave up and reinstated me.

At least in Illinois, the big problem is that it's a nightmare to (a) find out what you owe and (b) pay it. I had to call 3 different places, waiting on hold 15+ minutes each time, to eventually find someone to whom I could give a credit card number to. I got lucky that time; the last time I had this problem, I had to drive 3 hours into Indiana to find the courthouse that managed the speeding ticket I got.

I don't blame the police for any of this. I blame the state administration.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#74

Post by tptacek »

joesmo wrote: post #4

How about also ending grand juries altogether (or at least in cases of potential homicide)? It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury ). In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants.…

How exactly does eliminating grand juries help with out-of-control law enforcement? Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused. Do they work in practice? No. But eliminating them concedes the problem to the prosecution entirely.

You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#75

Post by angersock »

superuser2 wrote: post #46
moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

When people fixate on the untaxed ciagarettes thing, what's often going on is an implicit assumption that once someone has an interaction with the police, it's just inevitable that the police will summarily execute them. That's stupid. We can debate the laws too, but you should be demanding police that enforce the laws with due process and respond to threats proportionally. If you're thinking, "well, once the police…

When police fixate on the criminal thing, what's often going on is an implicit assumption that once someone has an interaction with a suspect, it's just inevitable that the suspect will attack.

See how that works?

As for the rest, go look up Warren vs. District of Columbia. The police are not there to serve and protect.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#76

Post by thatswrong0 »

refurb wrote: post #72
rayiner wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're low in the sense that any given person is unlikely to be personally murdered. They're not low in the sense that the impact of the crime on the community can't be felt. I used to live in Wilmington, DE, where 0.038% of people in the city get murdered each year. Vanishingly small odds, to be sure, but high enough where in the year I lived there several scary incidents "hit close to home." There was someone gunn…

I agree. When looking at stats like these, they hide the fact that homicides are not distributed equally across a country. The US has a high murder rate, but it is very localized not only in certain cities, but certain parts of cities. Outside of those areas the homicide rate is vanishingly low.

When you take out gang violence, the murder rate really isn't that bad. (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs)

> According to the 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment report, gangs are responsible for an average of 48 percent of violent crime in most jurisdictions, and up to 90 percent in others.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#77

Post by ericd »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #59
callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

In other words, you're an asshole. It's a shame they gave you back your car at all.

Why do you use an explicit throwaway account to post crappy comments? You clearly know it's a crappy comment. Why post it?

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#78

Post by dragonwriter »

refurb wrote: post #65
dragonwriter wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors themselves. The decision to charge essentially is up to the prosecutor; the grand jury process for felonies essentially plays an analogous role to the preliminary hearing for misdemeanors, in that it establishes probable cause and allows the case to continue. The difference is that, while felonies are notionally more serious crimes with…

the alternative to grand juries doesn't give prosecutors more power...[grand juries] establishes probable cause and allows the case to continue I don't think I understand the two. Grand juries can tell prosecutors "no", but if you remove them it gives prosecutors less power?

> I don't think I understand the two. Grand juries can tell prosecutors "no", but if you remove them it gives prosecutors less power?

In general, criminal trials require establishing probable cause to proceed to a full trial. There are two methods of doing this: indictment by a grand jury, or preliminary hearing before a judge.

In the former, the prosecutor presents evidence with no opposition. In the latter, the defendant is entitled to representation, to cross-examine witnesses, and to present their own evidence.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#79

Post by rconti »

callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

Parking spot 2 blocks from the highway? After all, it was the CHP that gave you the ticket....

In my experience, CHP is the EASIEST law enforcement agency to live with. 12 years here and not so much as a traffic stop. It's paradise compared to anywhere else I've been.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#80

Post by thrownaway2424 »

ericd wrote: post #77
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, you're an asshole. It's a shame they gave you back your car at all.

Why do you use an explicit throwaway account to post crappy comments? You clearly know it's a crappy comment. Why post it?

This is my only account! Anyway I'm not even trying to make crappy comments. I'm trying to point out the absurdity of the parent's self-entitled windshield perspective. His entire complaint can be condensed to "I don't like the police because after I repeatedly broke the law and ignored the process of justice, they had the temerity to tow my car." That's ridiculous. People need to take responsibility for their own actions behind the wheel, then they can learn to be better citizens. People who complain that traffic laws are enforced against them have an infantile sense of morality and cannot meaningfully participate in our society until they grow up.
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