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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#31

Post by waterlesscloud »

sp332 wrote: post #29
hellbanner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

Taxes on packs of cigarettes are very high in New York. So people smuggle in packs or cartons from neighboring states and sell them under the table.

Until this story I didn't realize how expensive cigarettes are now in New York. They're $13-14 for a pack of 20. So people sell them as singles for $1 each. Likely brought in from lower-taxed areas so the profit margin is higher.

I've heard cigs sell for $5 a pack in South Carolina, which doesn't add on taxes at all, so you can see how much the taxes add up.

EDIT- changed price in SC based on googling.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#32

Post by walshemj »

higherpurpose wrote: post #17
TillE wrote: post #11

One problem among many is that US police are both allowed and trained to use deadly force very quickly, when under any kind of threat. German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife. It's a common American meme that when police fire a gun, the only rational decision is to shoot to kill, but it's just not true.

In other countries the police is even obligated to fire a "warning shot" (in the air) before shooting to disable (and only later can shoot to kill).

Actually no certainly in the uk if a copper has to fire they are trained fire to kill - of course in serious anti terrorist situations they call in the SAS.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#34

Post by zik »

pzxc wrote: post #27
higherpurpose wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other countries the police is even obligated to fire a "warning shot" (in the air) before shooting to disable (and only later can shoot to kill).

1. Firing a shot in the air is reckless -- the bullet/round comes down with the same speed and momentum as when it was first fired, and it's gotta land somewhere -- and I'd be surprised if that was the standard operating procedure of any law enforcement agency in the world (however my surprise doesn't mean it isn't true). Perhaps you meant they fire a warning shot in the ground, but there is a big difference and that…

> ...the bullet/round comes down with the same speed and momentum as when it was first fired...

This would only be true if air resistance wasn't a thing. Physics is against you on this one.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#35

Post by mc32 »

hellbanner wrote: post #24
moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

I dont know for sure but i think they typically come from contraband cigarettes (where taxes have not been paid and, as others point out, without required license). It'd be like selling whiskey shots on a street corner.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#36

Post by walshemj »

anigbrowl wrote: post #19
figure_c wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you run into the problem of innocent, or at least justified, people having their financial lives destroyed defending against murder charges. I don't think it's as simple as "if someone dies there needs to be a trial".

We could adopt the English approach to coroner's inquiries, which are non-adversarial and don't have any custodial sanctions, but operate in public and can be input to a murder trial if that's appropriate. I don't want to put everyone on trial for murder, but I do think that every death needs to have an open investigation. This would obviously require some fundamental changes to the US legal system, but I think that…

Any death in custody in the uk gets investigated even more so in the rare case when deadly force is used.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#37

Post by Test-Grave »

TillE wrote: post #11

One problem among many is that US police are both allowed and trained to use deadly force very quickly, when under any kind of threat. German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife. It's a common American meme that when police fire a gun, the only rational decision is to shoot to kill, but it's just not true.

This is simply not true (At least not generally). Just recently the German Police shot a Drug Dealer while he was running away from undercover police officers. Shot was in the back of the head and as far as I remember they even said it was justified, since by German law it is allowed to use deadly force against a fleeing criminal... Sounds familiar? (Case in Burghausen)

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#38

Post by poulsbohemian »

I've been reading the Economist for 20+ years now and it never ceases to amaze me that while there is some excellent journalism, they really don't get the United States. Statements like "If America did not have 300m guns in circulation, much of this would change." show their bias, rather than having anything to do with the way the US turns everything - drugs, immigration, poverty - into a policing issue infused with violence. Does the Economist really believe that American gun ownership is a good excuse for why (in my case) rural police departments feel it necessary to be buying mine resistant vehicles? The whole situation is out of control, but like so many issues in American life, the Economist really misses the cultural and social picture.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#39

Post by ScottBurson »

refurb wrote: post #22
joesmo wrote: post #4

How about also ending grand juries altogether (or at least in cases of potential homicide)? It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury ). In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants.…

It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country This is an odd statement. It's well known that prosecutors have much greater latitude in what they can present as evidence AND the hurdle for proceeding with criminal charges is much lower. The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors them…

Grand juries don't seem to correct the most egregious errors in either direction. Consider the famous assertion that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. On the other hand, consider the recent non-indictment of Darren Wilson.

How often do grand juries defy the prosecutor's wishes?

I certainly agree that a check on prosecutorial discretion is badly needed. But the grand jury system doesn't seem to be providing it.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#40

Post by jonah »

cushychicken wrote: post #28
hellbanner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

Legal constraints of selling tobacco require a licensed vendor to sell them in licensed packages/quantities. Eric Garner wasn't licensed, and single cigarettes aren't allowed to be sold in the US. Fairly petty crimes, but crimes.

You can buy single cigarettes in many bars. (Don't know if it's legal though.)
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