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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#21

Post by rayiner »

higherpurpose wrote: post #16
figure_c wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you run into the problem of innocent, or at least justified, people having their financial lives destroyed defending against murder charges. I don't think it's as simple as "if someone dies there needs to be a trial".

Only something like 11 cases out of 160,000 the accused has not been indicted. The prosecutors can already "automatically" put everyone through trial. Not to mention plenty already "have their financial lives destroyed" through the Civil Forfeiture law.

That's the statistic for federal grand juries.[1] And it has mostly to do with the fact that federal prosecutors only bring slam dunk cases. At the federal level, there is often a lot of consternation about whether what is being prosecuted should be a crime, but it's very rare that a prosecution is brought on shaky evidence.

At the state level it's much higher 3-4%. You can say it's a rubber stamp, but in practice the average is raised by the fact that most criminal cases are slam dunk (that kilo of cocaine found in the accused's car is almost certainly his). And the bar for an indictment is relatively low, just probable cause. It'd be pretty uncomfortable if prosecuto so we're bringing lots of cases where they don't even have enough evidence to convince 3/4 of a grand jury there is probable cause.

[1] The distinction is relevant because federal and state prosecutors handle totally different sorts of crimes.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#22

Post by refurb »

joesmo wrote: post #4

How about also ending grand juries altogether (or at least in cases of potential homicide)? It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury ). In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants.…

It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country

This is an odd statement. It's well known that prosecutors have much greater latitude in what they can present as evidence AND the hurdle for proceeding with criminal charges is much lower.

The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors themselves. You think that will produce a better outcome? I would imagine you'd see a lot more politically motivated prosecutions.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#23

Post by Anechoic »

mc808 wrote: post #18
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #8

Several parts strike me 1. Killings by the police in the US are daily events but. "nobody knows the exact number as not all deaths are reported" WTF! The police don't report upwards if they shoot someone! 2. 37% of US blacks have confidence in the police (pretty high considering) but just 59% of whites. Good grief how do you police a city or a block if 40% of the nice white middle class people think you are going to…

I'm guessing they mean a shooting may not show up in the statistics as "shot dead" if someone dies from complications 6 months later, even if the shooting was responsible for the death.

No, the police do not report any shooting statistics. The numbers we have are based on press reports, but police are not required to report to any central authority (DOJ or FBI) about how or when their officers shoot someone.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#24

Post by hellbanner »

moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#25

Post by sp332 »

higherpurpose wrote: post #16
figure_c wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you run into the problem of innocent, or at least justified, people having their financial lives destroyed defending against murder charges. I don't think it's as simple as "if someone dies there needs to be a trial".

Only something like 11 cases out of 160,000 the accused has not been indicted. The prosecutors can already "automatically" put everyone through trial. Not to mention plenty already "have their financial lives destroyed" through the Civil Forfeiture law.

And that's only for cases that even made it to a grand jury. I haven't seen any stats about "officer-involved shootings" that never even got that far.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#26

Post by parineum »

moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

As far as I know, he was guilty of doing that in the past. He was killed in the process of being arrested for suspicion of doing it again.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#27

Post by pzxc »

higherpurpose wrote: post #17
TillE wrote: post #11

One problem among many is that US police are both allowed and trained to use deadly force very quickly, when under any kind of threat. German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife. It's a common American meme that when police fire a gun, the only rational decision is to shoot to kill, but it's just not true.

In other countries the police is even obligated to fire a "warning shot" (in the air) before shooting to disable (and only later can shoot to kill).

1. Firing a shot in the air is reckless -- the bullet/round comes down with the same speed and momentum as when it was first fired, and it's gotta land somewhere -- and I'd be surprised if that was the standard operating procedure of any law enforcement agency in the world (however my surprise doesn't mean it isn't true). Perhaps you meant they fire a warning shot in the ground, but there is a big difference and that you missed the distinction suggests to me you may not have accurate information about what law enforcement agencies are or are not required to do.

2. As for the GP, you should neither shoot to kill nor shoot to maim. You should shot to stop the threat. Whether they live or die is not as important as stopping a lethal threat (and if there is no lethal threat, you should not be shooting). And if your intent is to stop the threat rather than kill or injure, the best chance of stopping the threat is to shoot center of mass until the target goes down. (Which will, in most cases, kill the target, incidentally)

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#28

Post by cushychicken »

hellbanner wrote: post #24
moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

Legal constraints of selling tobacco require a licensed vendor to sell them in licensed packages/quantities. Eric Garner wasn't licensed, and single cigarettes aren't allowed to be sold in the US.

Fairly petty crimes, but crimes.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#29

Post by sp332 »

hellbanner wrote: post #24
moskie wrote: post #3

Small complaint (about an otherwise very good article): > Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.

Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?

Taxes on packs of cigarettes are very high in New York. So people smuggle in packs or cartons from neighboring states and sell them under the table.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#30

Post by walshemj »

joesmo wrote: post #4

How about also ending grand juries altogether (or at least in cases of potential homicide)? It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury ). In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants.…

Maybe have the attorney general be able to put any police force into special measures if they are failing or become over mighty I am sure that Theresa May can provide some guidance
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