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Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

wired.co.uk

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Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#351

Post by [deleted] »

humanrebar wrote: post #330
mc32 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The thing being harmed here is a business model. But everything is a "business model." If you get paid for work performed, that's a "business model". Should I be free to upset that business model? Can I talk to someone's employer and convince them to pay me 20% of someone's salary without their permission? Rihanna shows up for an event, a promoter promised her 50,000 for showing up and singing 60 seconds of a song a…

I'm not arguing against business models as a concept. I'm arguing that any particular business model does not overrule the natural rights to speech, privacy, and property (arguably, legal DRM cartels violate my right to own and modify my own property). All your examples involve fraud, so they don't really apply here. If I promised to pay someone for work and didn't pay them, I deserve to lose a lawsuit and be forced…

[deleted]

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#352

Post by ajslater »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #301
Retra wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think I have a fundamental right to access or own things created by other people. You do have such a right, because it is intimately related to the fact that you are human -- a social creature who essentially _requires_ things created by other people for your very survival. You may not agree that you should have immediate or non-negotiable access, but the mere fact that you are a producer of content and info…

Gimme all your shit

You can have all my digital shit. I'll still have it.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#353

Post by mc32 »

humanrebar wrote: post #333
mc32 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. When Target or Walmart or whatever credit card processor experiences a data breach and customer data is exposed it's considered data theft and treated as such as well. While we can't compare digital goods with physical goods in a 1:1 manner because they have different properties, so far, aspects as it concerns the law treat them similarly. Aspects of this may or may not change over time, howe…

The actual crime is the fraud committed when someone pretends to be someone else and runs up debts in their name with "stolen" credit card numbers. There are ancillary crimes that revolve around trying to keep credit card numbers secure, but taking my credit card number doesn't mean I don't have it anymore. That's not to say it isn't a scummy thing to do.

My examples could result in fraud, but aren't the kind you're talking about. You getting a hold of thousands, millions of credit cards without consent or some other agreement is a criminal offense. Let's get away from CC numbers. Just get a hold of thousands, millions of people's PHI through the same means. Get a hold of BEA's secret blue prints for future products.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#354

Post by [deleted] »

jkaunisv1 wrote: post #177
izolate wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." You are not born in isolation from the rest of us. Everything you create originated from an idea that you learned from somebody else. You have no right of ownership over something that is not entirely yours.

So if you make an apple pie, you don't mind that I come and steal it from your windowsill? You don't own it, after all. What if you spend a year making a beautiful cabinet? You didn't invent the tree, or the saw, so it's okay if I come by and cart the cabinet over to my house, right?

[deleted]

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#355

Post by mc32 »

humanrebar wrote: post #330
mc32 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The thing being harmed here is a business model. But everything is a "business model." If you get paid for work performed, that's a "business model". Should I be free to upset that business model? Can I talk to someone's employer and convince them to pay me 20% of someone's salary without their permission? Rihanna shows up for an event, a promoter promised her 50,000 for showing up and singing 60 seconds of a song a…

I'm not arguing against business models as a concept. I'm arguing that any particular business model does not overrule the natural rights to speech, privacy, and property (arguably, legal DRM cartels violate my right to own and modify my own property). All your examples involve fraud, so they don't really apply here. If I promised to pay someone for work and didn't pay them, I deserve to lose a lawsuit and be forced…

>arguably, legal DRM cartels violate my right to own and modify my own property

I think DRM is more analogous to leasing. I don't like DRM, there being alternatives I'd go with the unDRMed product/service. But it's up to us the consumers to say, yeah, I'll make that deal or no, I won't make that deal because it's unfair to me. We could also call for legislation to make DRM unattractive to DR holders as well -but unilateral action is not the solution.

>All your examples involve fraud, so they don't really apply here.

True, but if an artist or distributor in essence "says" I'll exchange music with you for compensation but you don't hold your end of the understanding, that's arguably fraud. In the Rihanna example, let's say the promoter says, in lieu of cash, I'm giving you exposure which I think is equivalent to 50,000 that does not absolve the promoter? She expected cash, not exposure to an audience who might represent future sales.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#356

Post by ElComradio »

humanrebar wrote: post #204
giarc wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It tilted people's brains into knowing that tomorrow, their favorite TV show must be downloaded somewhere else. Not sure how I feel about this. Regardless of how things have played out, I don't think people should expect free TV shows especially in the day and age of PVR/DVR/TIVO etc. I still think creators should be credited/paid for their work. EDIT - To expand, I think you can disagree with the cable companies an…

They should be paid for their work. They (their bosses at least) shouldn't have the power to cripple technology, limit the free flow of information, or throw people in jail to get paid. Again, we're talking about entertainment. The people working on these works are doing really cool things, but they don't have a right to get paid to do cool things. On the other hand, people should have the right to copy arbitrary bit…

I'm trying to figure out how you distinguish something like pirating a movie versus if I were to torrent your diary (assuming it did not involve breaking and entering your home, or whatever. Let's say you left it on a table and I copied it when you were in the bathroom). I'm assuming you would assert some control over those words. But when you object, I can say, "Well, look, you aren't losing anything, so nothing wrong really occurred here. You aren't deprived of your data."

So ok, instead of a diary, now let's say you work with a couple guys on a piece of fiction and someone 'releases' it before it's done. Why is that different? So ok, now I get together with 1,000 people and make a $180M movie. How is that different? At what point of these examples does a piece of information go from being OK to secure (diary) to not? (a movie)

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#358

Post by Vespasian »

3984239849823 wrote: post #91
realusername wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the alternative ? The world is not the United States, in most countries of the world, there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. I'm not even talking about 3rd world countries here, Netflix (the only service which is good enough to compare to Torrents) just barely arrived in Europe and their list of movies is so poor, it's not even worth talking about it. Torrents are not working…

Technically watching movies form internet is perfectly legal in most countries. Some distributor made movie accessible under some sort of license. It is not user obligation (or duty) to investigate wherever all legalities are sorted between producer and distributor. Plus some countries made it legal to make copy for personal use... and so on.

While users have not the obligation to investigate the source of a movie in detail, depending on your juristdiction there are laws about "obvious illegal sources" (like sites where one can download crappy copies of movies still in cinema for free, extremly shaddy ads, covered by public media as being illegal). For example if Netflix turned out to not have a license in my country I could argue that I as a user could not have known that since they made looked and acted like a regular respectable company. If on the other hand I download a torrent containing a recently released movie for free and an accompanying txt file allowing me to "share it to the world", my chances of defending that in front of a judge are not the greatest.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#359

Post by snowwrestler »

humanrebar wrote: post #210
egocodedinsol wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw, he might concede that illegal downloads are theft, but assert that digital property is also theft. In that case, I could see TPB defending those goals, or at least attacking their opposition. (not an endorsement just pointing it out, blah blah blah)

I don't anyone should concede that copying data is theft. Since theft implies an unlawful transfer of ownership. Copying data and deleting the original is theft.

Theft does not imply an unlawful transfer of ownership. For example a person can be charged with theft of service for stealing electricity or cable TV, even though all they did was cause their own electrons in their own cables to oscillate in a certain way.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#360

Post by dragonwriter »

humanrebar wrote: post #210
egocodedinsol wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw, he might concede that illegal downloads are theft, but assert that digital property is also theft. In that case, I could see TPB defending those goals, or at least attacking their opposition. (not an endorsement just pointing it out, blah blah blah)

I don't anyone should concede that copying data is theft. Since theft implies an unlawful transfer of ownership. Copying data and deleting the original is theft.

> Since theft implies an unlawful transfer of ownership.

Not only does theft not imply transfer of ownership, theft is incompatible with transfer of ownership. Stealing something doesn't make you its owner.

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