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Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

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Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#271

Post by hipsterrific »

mackey wrote: post #128
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

As someone who works for a company that offers unlimited vacation, I don't think its as cut and dry as you make it, although I see where you are coming from. I think the success of unlimited vacation really depends on the company, your manager, your peers, and you. That is a lot of things to get right, but if everything works out, I think unlimited vacation is really great. At least for my team, I think everyone shar…

I found that communication in projects and time-off is important. A company I worked for had unlimited PTO and it worked because we all planned accordingly. I took a three week trip to Europe in 2013, no one else took anything more than a day off when I was gone. My other colleague took a three week trip early in 2013, I didn't take any time off at all.

When we can, we also managed remote work. So I would go back to Chicago for one week stretches to hang with my family but I would work during the day. Even though it was a trade off (work remote or wait until another time to go back) it wasn't nearly as bad. We also communicated with business when we would be gone which really help manage our backlog.

As a team we communicated our time offs to each other. LIke we would go into each other's office (since my team was small, there's three of us) and have discussions as to when we would be gone so we each knew and expected it. It also helped us manage our sprints.

Unlimited PTO requires a bit more dancing and managing than having it tracked, but honestly, the pain is worth it. I never had to worry about being sick because if I'm sick, I'm encouraged to take time off to get well. It made it less stressful and, coincidentally, could de-stress faster in my vacay than I did when I had limited PTO.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#272

Post by jarek »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #198
shawabawa3 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you can find incentives/realign people so they are more productive. By giving them more vacation maybe?

I was thinking more along the lines of having them do work they are interested in/care about.

If you ask them, most developers will have something about the current codebase they would like to improve, or a 20%-like project that might improve the products. You can have them do this during times of over-availability.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#273

Post by KennyCason »

ernestipark wrote: post #121
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

The biggest part of unlimited vacation is really the culture of your company. If your company is filled w/ workaholics who look down on taking time off, it won't work. I'm an engineer at HubSpot and we have an unlimited vacation policy and for my team, it works great. Everyone is great about taking time off, we are happy for people when they do, and everyone gets their work done and is responsible. Everyone trusts ea…

Totally agree. In our case, we have people who are workaholics, and our solution was to make them take at least 2 weeks/year and make sure that people are taking breaks when needed/wanted to spread the culture that while work is important, this is your life, enjoy it. Having outside of work hobbies is extremely important to a healthy you.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#274

Post by simon »

delluminatus wrote: post #71
GFischer wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here in Uruguay, you have to take 10 days minimum, at least twice a year. Plus you get close to a week off a few times a year (Easter and Carnival). So a week is nothing special here :) It has a silver lining: it forces the company to plan for backups and make processes more explicit.

Color me envious. I currently get 10 paid vacation days total per year.

Twenty years ago, back in England, I had 5 weeks of vacation and standard public holidays. I moved to the United States and after twenty years I have "progressed" to zero vacation days and all public holidays as unpaid time off.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#275

Post by count »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #114
vosper wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the most important points in the article is that forcing people to take vacation, and encouraging them to be completely unavailable, means that the company must learn how to survive the absence of a team member. It forces you to reduce the bus-factor, and this is critical. I ask my team members to take at least 20 days off per year (we also have an unlimited vacation policy) and I'll be using this argu…

How do you do this without creating a bloated organization? For example if you have 20 team members and expect for 2 to be gone for some kind of vacation at any point. When all are at work you have a 10% inefficiency. I wonder if it would be more effective to have have stretches of intense work (4-6 months) with long rest periods (1-3 months) between. This would minimize the operational switching frequency, though it…

That mean's it's NOT bloated. If you have a bus factor of 1 anywhere, that means your organization is in pretty significant danger. People die, get sick, quit, or otherwise get unable-to-work'd ALL THE TIME.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#276

Post by Sammi »

mightybyte wrote: post #269
tspike wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you're an outlier doesn't mean that the findings of the study are invalid. There are lots of people who are genuinely good at their jobs, but who would do something completely different with their lives if a billion dollars dropped into their laps. Those people stand to gain much more from a long vacation than you do.

Yes, I realize that...hence my first sentence "That can't be true across the board." But people tend to cite these things like they're a fundamental truth about humans. I think the generalization is less useful than it might seem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#277

Post by spinlock »

vosper wrote: post #103
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

I think one of the most important points in the article is that forcing people to take vacation, and encouraging them to be completely unavailable, means that the company must learn how to survive the absence of a team member. It forces you to reduce the bus-factor, and this is critical. I ask my team members to take at least 20 days off per year (we also have an unlimited vacation policy) and I'll be using this argu…

Just to be that guy ... it actually _increases_ the bus-factor (which is good). The _higher_ the bus-factor the more people you can loose before your company goes under.

Pedantic niggling aside, I completely agree this is a huge benefit to the organization.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#278

Post by jonstewart »

sportanova wrote: post #2

Of course the other reason for 'unlimited vacation' is so when an employee leaves, the company doesn't have to pay them for unused vacation days. Huge red flag when a company has 'unlimited vacation'

It's gob-smacking that more folks here don't realize this. I would be very leery of working for a company with an open vacation, both for the reasons laid out in TFA, but also because it's a signal of pretty cynical management.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#279

Post by justizin »

e40 wrote: post #66
debacle wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, the company doesn't have to pay you for unused vacation days even if you don't use them. It's pretty much at the discretion of the company.

In CA, this is definitely not the case. A company must cut you a check on your final day that includes everything owed to you, including unused vacation days.

Or they can cut you a check that doesn't include everything owed to you, but ask you to sign a long agreement, buried within which is an assertion that the company has paid everything it owes you.

Since you need this check, you wouldn't get your vacation days.

Anyway, while I agree with the red flag concern, I don't necessarily agree that companies have unlimited vacation in order to cause you to take less. Esp in the startup world, esp at early stage, I don't expect to see this sort of intentional subterfuge - esp because of how it could backfire. I do think a minimum vacation policy makes more sense and allows, esp in places like CA where vacation is earned wage, and unused vacation is paid out at the end of the year, to manage the way vacation is counted.

I also think a company with mandatory vacation should consider allowing people to take at least some vacation in the form of a bonus. Maybe they have a spouse who doesn't have as flexible of a schedule or just really enjoy their work. I don't think this should be an option for founders, however, and I think it should accompany a discussion, because it doesn't work for most people.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#280

Post by dyadic »

encoderer wrote: post #184
shawabawa3 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This year I will be taking 4 weeks off in total So...basically a standard amount of vacation? I love the sound of unlimited vacation as a perk, but I'm worried I'd just get fired for "abusing it". I'd probably take something like 10 weeks/year

I don't find 4 weeks to be a "lot" of vacation time, but I think the hundred million workers or so who have 2 weeks or less every year would disagree that 4 weeks is "standard." On top of that I took 2 weeks of remote work. That said, if you're an awesome engineer (especially mobile -- Trulia has about a dozen mobile apps to build out), and you want 10 weeks every year, lets talk. I don't hire for the mobile teams so…

I realise it wasn't your main point, but can we stop with this trope of remote work being like a holiday or somehow worth less than in-office work.
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