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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

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Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#531

Post by rurounijones »

tptacek wrote: post #527
rurounijones wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However terribly Zubaydah was treated by the CIA, we should probably remain clear on the fact that he was believed by everyone involved, including Kiriakou, to have been an integral part of the Al Qaeda network. Is that supposed to be a rationalization for his treatment?

No, that's a shitty thing to accuse someone of, and if you read my entire comment you can see I don't believe that.. What's at issue in this subthread is Kiriakou's culpability in exposing intelligence programs for his own personal benefit.

Then I do not get the purpose of that sentence in your post since it reads like "Yes we did shitty stuff to him but remember they thought he was a bad guy at the time."

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#532

Post by im2w1l »

willscott wrote: post #61
rdtsc wrote: post #25

> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…

The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. For me, that's hope that we're still in a position to learn from our wrongs, and that the checks-and-balances are still somewhat in-tact.

That's like a perfect example of selection bias. The programs you haven't heard about... well you haven't even heard about them.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#533

Post by tptacek »

rurounijones wrote: post #531
tptacek wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a shitty thing to accuse someone of, and if you read my entire comment you can see I don't believe that.. What's at issue in this subthread is Kiriakou's culpability in exposing intelligence programs for his own personal benefit.

Then I do not get the purpose of that sentence in your post since it reads like "Yes we did shitty stuff to him but remember they thought he was a bad guy at the time."

I'll assume that's because you're unfamiliar with the Kiriakou case, in which Zubaydah plays an important role.

You could sum that case up by saying that Kiriakou is accused of two major harms to the USG: first, outing a 20-year undercover operative, and second, potentially compromising the Zubaydah case. It would be an easy message board rebuttal to say, "well, it turns out Zubaydah was a pawn with virtually no value to the USG or Al Qaeda, so compromising him was not a big deal". But, at the time when Kiriakou was alleged to have leaked secrets to promote his book, nobody believed that about Zubaydah. He was instead believed to have a key operational role in Al Qaeda, and compromising him to promote a book would have been a grave matter.

It is hard to explain the nuance of this case without sounding like I'm taking a side in it. CIA is also accused throughout the Senate report of leaking secrets to polish its own reputation. The only issue I'd have a problem with is the idea that Kiriakou's actions were heroic. By his own stipulations that appears not to be the case.

I'll say this again: I'm may be more ambivalent than most of HN when it comes to surveillance and law enforcement and regulation, but I am not ambivalent about torture or, for that matter, the CIA, or criminal liability for the CIA.

I should have to make that disclaimer, but obviously I do.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#534

Post by thizzbuzz »

rayiner wrote: post #470
cryoshon wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Torture is a cut and dry moral issue; inflicting pain on a person willfully for an extended period of time is not acceptable behavior, nor is this fact a matter of politics. The people/groups I listed in my original comment have placed themselves on the wrong side of this moral issue, and history will judge them harshly as such. Obama may have issued an executive order when he entered office, but attempting to block/…

Apparently 2/3 of Americans are on the wrong side of this "cut and dry moral issue." http://hotair.com/archives/2014/04/09/poll-68-of-americans-s...

It wouldn't be the first time that 2/3 of Americans support something atrocious. Slavery, voting rights, segregation, senseless wars, drug laws, gay rights, etc.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#535

Post by cpitman »

pessimist wrote: post #51

Dianne Feinstein deserves enormous credit. Fox News and Republicans are bashing her and by extension her party as traitorous as we speak. The argument that this report should be kept in secret because it endangers Americans' lives is abominable. As an American living abroad, I'm happy to see this released. Still, I wonder about some of the side-effects of this. Instead of arresting and interrogating terrorists we kil…

It was her job in the first place to keep this from happening. The fact that this report even needed to happen is a result of her committee's inability to provide the oversight that they are tasked with.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#536

Post by acjohnson55 »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #362
chroma wrote: post #328

It's a shame the report is so partisan. The democrat and republican sides disagree on basic facts, such as whether torture worked in extracting information, and whether that information helped to save lives. Both sides accuse the other of cherry-picking to bolster their cause. Since the primary records are unavailable to us, there's no way to get a more trustworthy opinion on the program. The CIA's behavior is probab…

Firstly, torture doesn't work, but it's not about that. Violence simply isn't morally legitimate ever, whether it's aggression or as a response to violence (possibly even greater violence). Whether it's torture, murder, whatever, it doesn't matter. Doing it in the name of war or national security doesn't make a moral difference. The ticking time bomb thing is just an excuse for this behaviour.

"Violence simply isn't morally legitimate ever, whether it's aggression or as a response to violence (possibly even greater violence)."

That requires some justification

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#537

Post by lotsofmangos »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #476
sp332 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a total number? Because this isn't the whole report, this is just the executive summary. The full (classified) report goes on for over 6,000 pages.

It's the number the executive report gives as the total. There's no reason to believe they're not counting them all.

I just checked, that isn't what the report says at all. They say "at least 39" and say that there are at least 17 other people who were tortured without central office even being notified. Also, these numbers are from one CIA program, not all CIA programs. And it specifically does not include people where the interrogators did anything outside guidelines, so the worst atrocities are not counted on this list at all.

This list does not include examples in which CIA inten-ogators were authorized to use the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, but then implemented the techniques in a manner that diverged from the authorization. Examples include Abu Zubair^®^ and, as detailed, KSM, whose intenogators developed methods of applying the waterboard in a manner that differed from how the technique had previously been used and how it had been described to the Department of Justice. This count also excludes additional allegations of the unauthorized use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#538

Post by bediger4000 »

rayiner wrote: post #412
bediger4000 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More legal argument. Given that the current US legal system doesn't apparently protect me, a US citizen, from administrative assassination, I'm worried that I can be administratively shipped off for torture. That is: the actions outlined in this summary of a report, and in other tacit admissions by US elected leaders, go way beyond arguing that the actions are "legal" or "illegal". The actions outlined in the summary…

It's not a legal argument at all. Go up to a random person on the street (not in San Francisco), and tell them that the rights of people caught fighting against the U.S. in Afghanistan are just as important as those of law-abiding immigrants trying to build a life in the U.S. To the contrary. I think you have to have a very legalistic dedication to procedural due process to assert that people abroad advocating the vi…

I have to disagree: the instant that something becomes a privilege, and not a right, is the instant that some administrator can decide that I personally don't deserve that privilege. There goes my personal protection against our police force, and my personal ability to speak my mind.

Beyond that, if it's good policy for US citizens to have freedom of speech, or right to a fair trial, or to not be tortured, then it's good policy for all humans to have those rights.

By asserting the "random person in the street" argument, you're asserting a tyranny of the majority. You should know better. Shame on you.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#539

Post by bediger4000 »

rayiner wrote: post #506
mikeash wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With how many posts you've deleted or had killed, I can't really search your history at this point. Anyway, if you you have no interest in trying to convince people, why are you here discussing this? You're certainly giving every appearance of trying to convince people. You're putting forth arguments that look like they're intended to be convincing. In another comment, you mentioned environmental disaster as somethin…

I could ask you the same question. Do you think you're going to convince people who think terrorism is an existential threat that torture is not acceptable, no exceptions? I doubt it. Rather, you're here to express your sentiment on the subject. I'm just expressing mine. Anyway, at no point did I ever say we should torture anyone. In fact I said exactly the opposite in response to 'angibrowl. But at the end of the da…

So it's OK to torture or otherwise deprive a "scumbag" of their rights?

Who decides what constitutes "scumbaggery"? You? Me? A random person off the street? A CIA lawyer? The President?

This sounds like a recipe for disaster, frankly. It sounds like a recipe for treating some minorities as non-humans, on a not very formal basis.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#540

Post by patronagezero »

EliRivers wrote: post #524
Arnor wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how shall we proceed?

The first step is telling your representative(s) that you think torture is bad. They genuinely don't know if you approve of it or not, and they've got the CIA and associated lobby telling them how necessary it is and that if they try to stop it, they're hurting america and in fact they're basically terrorists themselves. Start by phoning your representative's office. Today. Tomorrow. The day after that. Every day, as…

Politics will not get us out of this mess, but it sure is an easy ride if that's the limitations of your efforts.
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