US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program • Hacker News Board

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#501

Post by arh68 » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 3:22 AM UTC

RealGeek wrote: post #235

rdtsc wrote: post #25

> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…

Let's not forget, not all the detainees were terrorists. US promoted a reward program in middle east asking locals to turn in anyone with ties to terrorists. All they had to do was tell a name to US military, and collect reward for every name. Many locals turned in thousands of innocent people just to collect a reward. These people were immediately arrested and shipped off to Guantanamo Bay without any investigation.…

You got that right. :|

    at least 26 were wrongfully held and did not meet the detention standard
    ...
    included an "intellectually challenged" man whose CIA detention was 
    used solely as leverage to get a family member to provide information

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#502

Post by mikeash » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 3:24 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #496

mikeash wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy it. You've repeatedly brought up that one item to the exclusion of all the others in contexts that use it as part of an actual argument. Unless your entire participation in this thread is just an elaborate and vast attempt to mock people?

If you search my post history, you can see I mentioned the cold room three times, besides the original mention. One was in a hyperbolic rhetorical context, to exaggerate the distinction with killing someone, which we consider acceptable in war: > So you're saying we shouldn't engage in torture because it's "bad"? It's okay to blow these same people up in the battlefield, but god forbid we throw water on them and put…

With how many posts you've deleted or had killed, I can't really search your history at this point.

Anyway, if you you have no interest in trying to convince people, why are you here discussing this? You're certainly giving every appearance of trying to convince people. You're putting forth arguments that look like they're intended to be convincing.

In another comment, you mentioned environmental disaster as something that should rank higher. Do you also endorse the use of torture on unrepentant polluters, climate change skeptics, and the like? Or is terrorism somehow special in your eyes?

And I couldn't care less how many people agree with you. I can't understand why you would even bring that up.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#503

Post by mikeash » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 3:25 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #479

rayiner wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be pretty happy if HN could muster the same uniform moral outrage about rape jokes involving non-terrorists (e.g. gamergate) as it has shown in response to my comment about terrorists being cold. But I guess my priorities are out of whack.

There's a big difference between a bunch of gamers on the internet making rape threats between/during halo sessions, and members of the .gov/.mil torturing people in black sites...though there are plenty of people on both sides of the gamergate nonsense who'd love to draw a parallel in their level of supposed persecution.

Also, there seems to be no shortage of outrage on HN towards the perpetrators of such things when such stories are discussed here.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#504

Post by argumentum » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 3:58 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #489

rayiner wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary, you're not going to get much mileage in court attacking someone's weakest argument. On the internet, however, mocking someone's weakest argument is fair game.

> On the internet, however, mocking someone's weakest argument is fair game Not on Hacker News it isn't. We want people to apply the Principle of Charity and respond to the strongest reasonable interpretation of what each other is saying [1]. Alternatively, A comment in reply to another comment should be written in the spirit of colleagues cooperating in good faith to figure out the truth about something, not politic…

As a mild disagreement, I would worry that over-enforcement of this principle would squelch out all humor. While humor may not quite be in the spirit of colleagues, or politics, it is certainly within the spirit of friendship. I am not sure about the right line to draw, but I do think that a truly friendly community is one that doesn't take itself too seriously.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#505

Post by abfan1127 » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 4:00 AM UTC

scrapcode wrote: post #337

RealGeek wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget, not all the detainees were terrorists. US promoted a reward program in middle east asking locals to turn in anyone with ties to terrorists. All they had to do was tell a name to US military, and collect reward for every name. Many locals turned in thousands of innocent people just to collect a reward. These people were immediately arrested and shipped off to Guantanamo Bay without any investigation.…

What is your source? Both because I have always heard about the "rewards program" and am interested in reading more, and because wherever you got the information that thousands of people were ever sent to Guantanamo Bay is simply wrong [1]. I see a trend of people rehashing things about Guantanamo Bay that they've heard somewhere else and just putting it out there. It doesn't help the progressive agenda of understand…

your link says this: "Bounties paid by Bush Administration to anyone who would hand over a possible terror suspect: $3,000 to $25,000" and references http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8049868/ns/world_news

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#506

Post by rayiner » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 4:04 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #502

rayiner wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you search my post history, you can see I mentioned the cold room three times, besides the original mention. One was in a hyperbolic rhetorical context, to exaggerate the distinction with killing someone, which we consider acceptable in war: > So you're saying we shouldn't engage in torture because it's "bad"? It's okay to blow these same people up in the battlefield, but god forbid we throw water on them and put…

With how many posts you've deleted or had killed, I can't really search your history at this point. Anyway, if you you have no interest in trying to convince people, why are you here discussing this? You're certainly giving every appearance of trying to convince people. You're putting forth arguments that look like they're intended to be convincing. In another comment, you mentioned environmental disaster as somethin…

I could ask you the same question. Do you think you're going to convince people who think terrorism is an existential threat that torture is not acceptable, no exceptions? I doubt it. Rather, you're here to express your sentiment on the subject. I'm just expressing mine.

Anyway, at no point did I ever say we should torture anyone. In fact I said exactly the opposite in response to 'angibrowl. But at the end of the day I have better places to use my limited moral outrage than on how Khalid Sheik Mohammad was treated.

To be honest, what really kept me participating in this thread is the comparison to Japanese and Jewish persecution. I just can't understand the point of view of people who focus on the action alone, to the exclusion of who is the target of the action. I think it matters that these guys are scumbags.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#507

Post by maroonblazer » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 4:12 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #25

> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…

>Not sure who said, maybe it was Slavoj Zizek, about how if we are even debating "is torture right or what advantages it might have" we have already lost.Like most of what Zizek says, this doesn't survive even the slightest scrutiny. Not that I want to be seen as "pro-torture", but to dismiss it categorically, as Zizek does, is to fail to grapple with the more general ethical conundrum of collateral damage.

Harris discusses this quite effectively[0]. Basically boiling it down to (paraphrasing) "If you're against torture then you should be against any action that results in collateral damage."

[0]http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-id-rather-not-speak-a...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#508

Post by ams6110 » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 4:40 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #423

gcb0 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your elected officials are only now learning about what happened. nothing there was authorized by who you allowed into power. The common man is even more detached from the powers that be than previously assumed (which was already low).

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing" We knew - we knew - that detainees were being tortured. We didn't know how many; nor for how long; nor the exact methods; but we did know that it was happening.

We (congress) knew more than vague generalities. According to Jose Rodriguez[1], administration and congressional leaders knew, approved, and were kept briefed throughout.

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/todays-cia-critics-on...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#509

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 4:47 AM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #471

clebio wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've assumed this theory prima facie for a while. Further examples are movies glorifying war (Homefront, Lone Survivor). As coldtea mentions, it could be considered a form of moving the Overton window .

You've got the tail wagging the dog here. Art is often a reflection of the times. Do you remember post 9-11 America? People were angry and afraid. Jack Bauer tortured because America wanted him too.

[deleted]

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#510

Post by bdamm » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 4:54 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #490

Arnor wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how shall we proceed?

The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.

This.