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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

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Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a family member who was hooked on the TV show "24" which featured torture. I think that it is quite possible that there is some purposeful desensitization going on.

I've heard this theory. It's not really consistent with the fact that "24" was a torture-fest from the first season, aired before the enhanced interrogation stuff really got going. I was in college at the time, and we loved the show. You don't need much "purposeful desensitizing" to convince a bunch of 20-something guys it's okay to torture terrorists.

Q: do you still love the show? After all this, I mean.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like to turn the question around though: If torture could prevent the mass killing of innocent civilians, do you see any justification in it?

No. I don't think torture is ever justified, under any circumstances. No exceptions.

If you start bending on this, you become the thing you hate. Take the moral high-ground or slide down the mountain. Good luck finding a comfortable place somewhere before you are below the person you hate.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. For me, that's hope that we're still in a position to learn from our wrongs, and that the checks-and-balances are still somewhat in-tact.

We haven't apologized, we haven't made restitution, and we sure as heck haven't prosecuted the guilty (as required by the convention against torture). I'm struggling to see any saving grace.

Right. And the only one sitting in prison so far is former CIA operative John Kiriakou who blew the whistle on the torture program. Go figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#254
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference, of course, is that those in the internment camps were Americans, while most of these guys are terrorists captured on the battlefield. I do think the comparison is inappropriate, but internment was the atrocity, not this.

How do you know all these detainees were "captured on the battlefield"? Because we've been told that? By the same people who said we were not using extraordinary rendition and not using torture? I'm surprised that you think torture is not an atrocity. The US claims to be "giving the gift of democracy" and "spreading freedom". Ignoring international conventions on the rights of prisoners of war (and do not start the w…

> How do you know all these detainees were "captured on the battlefield"? By the same people who said we were not using extraordinary rendition and not using torture?

Because if the CIA was just ignoring the rules, they wouldn't be trying to lawyer their way around what's "enhanced interrogation" versus "torture." They'd just be pulling out fingernails.

> Ignoring international conventions on the rights of prisoners of war

You fundamentally misunderstand the rationale behind these conventions. The reason we don't torture the soldiers of civilized nations is because we assume that they will reciprocate when it comes to our soldiers. Stateless militants can't be expected to do that, so the rationale for following those international conventions disappears.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#255
let's assume a group like Occupy started to gain enough traction that they became a serious threat to the status quo. that is to say, that the current power base started to shift to a form of politics outside the current two party flip flop system the USA has today.

How long do you think it would be before those 'subversive' groups, even as non-violent, would start to receive the same treatment?

There are few of us prepared to stick our heads above the parapet. Those that do, end up fucked. I.e. Snowden, Assange and Manning.

Sometimes I dream about a people's takeover, Fight Club style, where each man on the street reminds those in power who cooks their food, who washes their clothes, who takes care of their children. A subtle collective threat en-mass to fight the power.

Then I drift back off to sleep.

   I am the People, the Mob
   Carl Sandburg, 1878 - 1967

   I am the people—the mob—the crowd—the mass.
   Do you know that all the great work of the world is 
   done through me?

   I am the workingman, the inventor, the maker of the 
   world’s food and clothes.

   I am the audience that witnesses history. The Napoleons 
   come from me and the Lincolns. They die. And then I send 
   forth more Napoleons and Lincolns.

   I am the seed ground. I am a prairie that will stand for 
   much plowing.

   Terrible storms pass over me. I forget. The best of me is 
   sucked out and wasted. I forget. Everything but Death 
   comes to me and makes me work and give up what I have. 

   And I forget.

   Sometimes I growl, shake myself and spatter a few red 
   drops for history to remember. Then—I forget.

   When I, the People, learn to remember, when I, the 
   People, use the lessons of yesterday and no longer forget 
   who robbed me last year, who played me for a fool—then 
   there will be no speaker in all the world say the name: 
   “The People," with any fleck of a sneer in his voice or 
   any far-off smile of derision.

   The mob—the crowd—the mass—will arrive then.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#256
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know all these detainees were "captured on the battlefield"? Because we've been told that? By the same people who said we were not using extraordinary rendition and not using torture? I'm surprised that you think torture is not an atrocity. The US claims to be "giving the gift of democracy" and "spreading freedom". Ignoring international conventions on the rights of prisoners of war (and do not start the w…

> How do you know all these detainees were "captured on the battlefield"? By the same people who said we were not using extraordinary rendition and not using torture? Because if the CIA was just ignoring the rules, they wouldn't be trying to lawyer their way around what's "enhanced interrogation" versus "torture." They'd just be pulling out fingernails. > Ignoring international conventions on the rights of prisoners…

We generally try to uphold high moral standards even if they won't be reciprocated. Many of those conventions provide additional incentive of reciprocation, but that's not the only relevant factor.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#257

A few things: The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. I hope this dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them. Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture. Not sure that he has any credibility left after being caught on the record lying to congress, but whatever. The White House atte…

The White House attempted to keep this report from coming out. That's inaccurate. Kerry asked for a delay in its release; as Secretary of State, responsible for US embassies around the world, it's his job to draw attention to the risk factors. All reports I've read prior to the release said that both the President and Vice President were strongly in favor of publication. Ultimately the choice to classify or declassif…

It's also been argued that the White House really wanted to prevent the release, and reasoned that if they could prevent it from coming out until the new (republican) senate takes office, that republican congress would likely kill it entirely and let the white house claim the high ground despite actually doing the opposite. Kerry's actions certainly support that theory.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#258
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN does not impose trade bans. You know why the Secretary General, the UN's leader, is called that? Because he is a secretary for the people who actually have power, the leaders of nation-states.

> You know why the Secretary General, the UN's leader, is called that? Because he is a secretary for the people who actually have power. Secretary is essentially another word for Minister, and NATO's Secretary-General is its supreme commander in wartime. The UN's leader is called the Secretary General because he is in essence its Prime Minister, not because you get confused between a Secretary and his/her secretaries…

>NATO's Secretary-General is its supreme commander in wartime

>The UN's leader is called the Secretary General because he is in essence its Prime Minister

Both are wrong and wildly imaginative.

>General Secretary Joseph Stalin

Yes, but there's also a historic reason behind that title. The leader (like Chairman Mao) of the Soviet Union was supposed to be a sort of secretary for the workers. "Soviet" actually means "council"; the "chairman" and "secretary" names are communist propagandaspeak to give the impression that the workers are the ones in charge.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#259
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Honest question: Why did you post those messages? Just because they were supposed to be funny? (I wasn't expecting those messages from you?) (FWIW: You are not the first one I ask about this.)

You're probably too morally outraged by all this to appreciate the humor in the phrasing of that sentence.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#260
post #222

A few things: The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. I hope this dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them. Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture. Not sure that he has any credibility left after being caught on the record lying to congress, but whatever. The White House atte…

> The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. Stop assuming Republicans support torture. McCain comments on the report: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/09/lv-mcc...

Marco Rubio has come out in support of the actions of the CIA; who is to say he doesn't represent the party line on this issue more than McCain?

(and really, McCain is one of few Republicans who doesn't support torture because of his own background as a POW)

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