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ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

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Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#101
I spent 14 years in Paris, 10 as a journalist covering finance and tech for the NYT and Bloomberg.

The Paris Tech Guide is an understandable piece of boosterism, but I would not recommend Paris or France to people looking for a tech ecosystem to support them.

I'm not going to talk about the food, because it's totally irrelevant to this discussion. If that's the reason why you choose a city for your startup, your startup will probably fail.

I'm also not going to engage in French-bashing. I have many good friends in Paris, and the city itself is a beautiful piece of work. It just isn't great for business...

Paris's poor business environment has many causes, and they run much deeper than the incompetent Socialist government currently in power. That government is just the latest captain steering the ship of state, and the state is very heavy in France. It was heavy under Chirac and Sarkozy. It is heavy for the French themselves. They are constantly confronted with absurd rules governing aspects of their existence that legislators felt obligated to regulate. Imagine how difficult it is for the foreigner to navigate those laws. Very.

As a country, France has crippled its once powerful financial industry and driven a lot of capital and financial services to London. You could argue that this began with Mitterand in the early 1980s, so it's a decades-long trend. And finance is important, because it makes a lot of people silly rich and some of them become investors. Losing finance means that France's expertise has been considerably weakened in the domain of financial technology, which is going to eat banks like it ate publishing.

As a society, France has a technologically conservative, luddite streak that is quite the opposite of Americans' tech liberalism. While France produces many gifted mathematicians and engineers, they usually fail to productize and successfully market their ideas. Props to the minitel, but who uses it now?

Many unFrench people fail to appreciate that France suffers from a rigid, ossified class structure, where people can be pigeon-holed by their accents, much as in Britain. Rigid, ossified class structures are really bad at identifying and cultivating talent. They're very good at creating a few schools (Sciences Po, ENA, the Polytechnique) that produce a small ruling class. Most applicants are not admitted. The institutional structure is well trained at telling people "non, c'est impossible."

So France is a machine that stifles peoples' potential. That's why many of the most ambitious French people leave. The ones that remain are split between the privileged and the frustrated.

If you want to build something, and it has to be in Europe, choose the Anglo-Germanic countries: the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia. Several of those economies are bigger and on the whole they tend to move faster. People there learn English well (except in Britain of course ;). The rules of the country will be more understandable and more predictably enforced.

Go to France when you're rich and ready to retire. They'll welcome you with open arms. The country isn't made for builders.

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#102
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you ultimately should come to Paris because you can cut your payroll by 20%. Don't forget that your employees enjoy perks such as free healthcare or unemployment insurance from the government. Moreover, they had their MSc for free or almost, which means they don't have any student loan to pay back. If they have kids, their school is probably both decent and free. If it isn't, what's meant by "expensive private scho…

> Most US workers would be better off getting all of this for a 20% pay cut. It's not a 20% pay cut, when you get paid €5k here, your employer already gives ~€4k to the government to pay for all those "free social services", and then you still have to pay 30% tax on your income. So the "free" education and healthcare actually costs you something like €6k per month, most people are not aware of this because half of th…

So true.

Last month, they announced a new law: Pay slips will be "simplified" by hiding all the contributions paid for by the employer.

When I asked french relatives, they'd tell me "but it's not a part of my salary, it's what my boss pays". You. Stupid.

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#103
post #101

I spent 14 years in Paris, 10 as a journalist covering finance and tech for the NYT and Bloomberg. The Paris Tech Guide is an understandable piece of boosterism, but I would not recommend Paris or France to people looking for a tech ecosystem to support them. I'm not going to talk about the food, because it's totally irrelevant to this discussion. If that's the reason why you choose a city for your startup, your star…

OTOH, Paris is the open source capital of the World :)

http://www.paris-region.com/sites/default/files/brochuretic....

"With a €4 billion turnover, the French market represents 26% of the European open source market, including software and services (PAC, The Open Source Market in France, 2011). Open source has seen a rapid expansion in the past decade, with an annual growth rate of over 68%."

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#104
post #42

This makes me cringe a bit. What this document says seems to be that France is a great country to start a company in mostly because you can get cheap labor. It is stated that a mid-level dev is $50-80K in France, however the cost of living in Paris is comparable to living in New York, so it means that you ultimately should come to Paris because you can cut your payroll by 20%.

Salaries are very depressed. Experienced engineers outside of Paris make 45K top, when you live in Paris you get a 30% salary increase for the cost of living. Payroll wise: take what you pay someone, multiply by two, that's what you actually have to front: half goes to the worker (who will be heavily taxed) and the rest is tax. Taxation is pure confiscation here.

I agree that taxation is definitely an issue, but I also feel that the field of computer engineering is under-valued in France as a general rule.

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#105
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you ultimately should come to Paris because you can cut your payroll by 20%. Don't forget that your employees enjoy perks such as free healthcare or unemployment insurance from the government. Moreover, they had their MSc for free or almost, which means they don't have any student loan to pay back. If they have kids, their school is probably both decent and free. If it isn't, what's meant by "expensive private scho…

> Most US workers would be better off getting all of this for a 20% pay cut. It's not a 20% pay cut, when you get paid €5k here, your employer already gives ~€4k to the government to pay for all those "free social services", and then you still have to pay 30% tax on your income. So the "free" education and healthcare actually costs you something like €6k per month, most people are not aware of this because half of th…

> healthcare does reimburse less each year

The part that matters is the one about serious conditions: accidents, cancers, infarctus etc. Paying a few hundreds a months to get a few thousands back when you break a tooth or your glasses isn't a life-changing service, it merely regulates your cash-flow for a fee.

What matters is knowing that if you need a 6- or 7-figures treatment, you'll get it. You won't be bankrupt because of it, your insurance won't weasel out of paying for it, and your employment status at the time you discovered your disease is irrelevant to the way you'll be treated. All of those life-threatening and/or chronic conditions are handled by public insurance, and 100% reimbursed (except for convenience services like individual hospital room with TV, which indeed you have to pay for, directly or through your private insurance).

You're right that the 20% discount claimed by the presentation is probably meant "out of the company's pocket", net salary differences are way beyond 20%. I think a regular developer with a few years of experience but no super-sexy skill will get around €2000-€2500 net of taxes in Paris. That's not a lot if you want to rent a decent flat inside Paris. People know how much they actually cost to their employer, it's written right next to their net salary on their salary sheet every month, and it's regularly reminded to them in public debates.

About education, there's another advantage to its public funding: prices don't get ridiculously inflated as they are in American universities. There's no education bubble in countries supporting public education. Also, it (somewhat) improves meritocratic social mobility, which means a higher rate of smart kids actually becoming skilled professionals. Finally, as a potential employer, schools which don't treat their students as customers tend to force-feed them more of the unpalatable curriculums such as maths, algorithms, etc. You tend to get a better trained workforce.

To sum it up, European prefer lower risk lifestyles, on average. There's more redistribution of wealth, less opportunity to become very rich, and less violence (I count denying a life-saving chemotherapy as violence, although social safety nets also alter crime rates). This appeals more to the kind of people who happily stay salaried than to risk-loving entrepreneurs. But as an entrepreneur, there's value in settling somewhere that appeals to the kind of people who will happily remain your employees: you don't have to pay them the opportunity cost of renouncing to become Mark Zuckerberg.

What this presentation unfairly brushed off war the amount of bureaucracy you have to face in order to get anything done, and how even harder to navigate it is when you aren't a native.

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#106
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you that you will want the government to help, especially when you don't have any money to start your business. You should ask a few entrepreneurs about this.

I am an entrepreneur and I don't want the government's help. The government is the new Church here and I want out.

So you choose to suffer the bad sides of the government without taking any advantage from it ? You are free to do so, but is it really the wisest solution when you are just looking for a solution to survive ? And isn't it a form of church too, to refuse anything coming from the government ? (I am not from any church, if you're asking)

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#107
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, believe me. If you think that the pizza you get for 8-9€ is decent, take the time, once in your lifetime, to visit Naples. There are a couple of good pizza places in Paris, but prices hover around 15€ per pizza.

1. What makes you think I have never been to Naples? I've actually been there, and many places in Italy, over the years. There are amazing places, and crappy tourist places, just like everywhere in the world. 2. I said "decent", not "outstanding". You can get decent pizze in Paris for less than 10€ in any decent pizzeria (there are some bad ones, just don't come back to them).

> 2.

Please, please tell me where they are! My email is hn_handle@my_employee and you can probably infer my_employee from my submissions :)

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#109
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No its not. Paris is the most touristic city in the world. You can be perfectly fine if you don't speak word of french.

Although Paris is the most visited city in the world. It also has a reputation amongst the global cities as being unfriendly. Enough that the Paris Tourist Board and Chamber of Commerce have launched a campaign to educate service workers on treating tourists better. Tourists also do not spend as much money in Paris. It is number 3 in that regard. This is likely due to Paris' centralized position. It may more likely b…

It's time to stop repeating like a parrot what everyone said 10 years ago.

Nowadays people in Paris are friendly enough and speak english.

Re: ParisIsBack – The Paris Tech Guide

#110
post #101

I spent 14 years in Paris, 10 as a journalist covering finance and tech for the NYT and Bloomberg. The Paris Tech Guide is an understandable piece of boosterism, but I would not recommend Paris or France to people looking for a tech ecosystem to support them. I'm not going to talk about the food, because it's totally irrelevant to this discussion. If that's the reason why you choose a city for your startup, your star…

OTOH, Paris is the open source capital of the World :) http://www.paris-region.com/sites/default/files/brochuretic.... "With a €4 billion turnover, the French market represents 26% of the European open source market, including software and services (PAC, The Open Source Market in France, 2011). Open source has seen a rapid expansion in the past decade, with an annual growth rate of over 68%."

I guess the question would be: Do you need to live in France to sell to that market? RedHat's doing fine, and they're based in Raleigh. Many of the companies listed in that report -- Mozilla, for example -- are not French or based in France...
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