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I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

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Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#11
Not all tech workers are equal.

My company does not care what language you know, or technology you use- we want people who are smart, capable of working with any technology. And we want the very best of those people, without lowering the quality bar for the sake of having people in seats.

We will let people go while we also are hiring for open positions on the same team if we realize the person isn't s good fit after all. I have little job security, but I work with only fantastic people. It's a deal I'm happy with. The pay is nice, and I never feel like the smartest in the room.

There are lots of companies like this. We have to complete with them for those top tier people. And we frequently find those good people outside of America.

The result? They often come work in our non-USA offices. That's one less job that would have existed in America, with the salary of it being taxed in America. It's a loss for the USA.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#12
I'm afraid there's a shortage of good programmers, with proper education in computer science, understanding of how the OS and programs interact, knowing how to use at least one programming language proficiently, fluent in algorithms and data structures - i mean people who know their tools and know what they're doing. Instead we've got lots of excited, half-educated but enthusiastic ctrl-c/ctrl-v specialists, doing whatever they think is right/necessary and not even realizing how broken their products are (or how much better they could be if their authors were a bit more knowledgeable)

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#13
post #9
post #2

If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later. http://www.theatlantic.com/busin…

Relatively moderate nit: Using the WhatsApp founders is a very poor example. If you look at their resumes (VP of Eng at Yahoo for Brian, presumably a very senior/architect-level engineering role for Jan), I have no doubt they were interviewing at Facebook for architect/engineering director-level roles. Whether or not you get hired at that level obviously depends on much more than baseline coding competency.

I'll pick some at that nit. In the link, the author contrasts it to the quote from Zuckerberg: "Our policy is literally to hire as many talented engineers as we can find. The whole limit in the system is just that there aren’t enough people who are trained and have these skills today."

The example is to point out how this quote is not true, as two such engineers were not hired by Facebook. You point out that it depends on more than coding competency. While true, neither I nor the author of the piece suggests otherwise. The author, for example, suggests that ageism is one factor, and further quotes Zuckerberg as saying “Young people are just smarter. Why are most chess masters under 30?”

So I don't see how it's a poor example. You argue that they were a poor fit for the position. That essay brings up “purple squirrels” several times, to highlight how a generic "poor fit" can be a surface excuse for other reasons.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#14
post #2

If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later. http://www.theatlantic.com/busin…

Very simple fix: instead of lottery, award the visas to the highest paid employees in each field. That salary cannot drop more than 10%. (I'd add, the employee can switch companies, instead of being tied to one, given they are again paid the same amount in salary).

The "offending" companies are not the likes of Facebook or Google, or small start ups (other HN discussions mentioned the concrete companies that get the most visas). There is an apparent shortage of highly-skilled highly-qualified workers. Maybe not "code-monkeys" (whatever that means).

edit: One more thing, the above argument is supported by the sources you link, but it is not clearly indicated in them whether they considered that the majority of H1-Bs are (I presume) people starting their careers, so comparing their wages with the average of all Americans regardless of tenure is misleading.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#15
post #11

Not all tech workers are equal. My company does not care what language you know, or technology you use- we want people who are smart, capable of working with any technology. And we want the very best of those people, without lowering the quality bar for the sake of having people in seats. We will let people go while we also are hiring for open positions on the same team if we realize the person isn't s good fit after…

True, there are even Americans working abroad right now (American with a Chinese work visa). Its a global market for talent, not just an American one.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#16
Fully agree.

Recently discussing this issue among friends, not one of them could get hired for specific positions, even though they knew the required technologies.

All got the same excuse, the said technologies were being used in side projects, not on their main job.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#17

Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3. Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the wo…

For the specific reason that resumes are often, if not actually outright faked, at least "enhanced", I've been contemplating starting a business in which I would perform resume screening for folks like you, for a fee.

I don't really know how to structure it yet. I don't want to be a recruiter or headhunter. What I would like to do is to offer folks such as yourself, who already have resumes, my opinion as to the qualifications of each candidate.

I myself got the very highest-paying job of my career, writing Mac OS X I/O Kit Kernel Extensions - what Apple calls device drivers - because I was the first candidate in six months who knew how to do synchronization in the kernel. That's a very basic requirement for writing a device driver, so it's covered in detail, and quite clearly by the tutorials on Apple's developer site.

I expect lots of people figured they could get a cushy, high-paying job, so they just added fake device driver work to their resume. Ironically, the guy who asked me that question was their windows driver engineer.

More or less the way it would work is that you'd send me some candidate resumes, and I would tell you which ones I think were worth your time to interview.

Quite commonly, references are only checked after an interview, as the last step before making an offer.

I wouldn't check their references, so as not to annoy them, but would call or email the HR departments at each of the employers the list, to verify their employment. "Did they work for you from this year to that year?" is a simple yes-or-no question.

Also I would verify that those who claimed to have college degrees, really graduated.

In my entire life, the only time I've been asked to supply my transcripts to anyone, was when I applied to graduate school, and so I could qualify for a discount on my auto insurance. I've never had a potential employer ask for my transcripts.

Would you regard such a service as valuable? If so, have you any suggestions as to how I could get started, or how to market such a service?

A lot of people have told me I'd make a good headhunter. I expect I would, but I don't want to do that, because I want the whole practice of third-party technical recruitment to just go away.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#18

Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3. Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the wo…

Could you provide an example of your definition of a simple program and the resources they had to write it?

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#19

Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3. Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the wo…

For the specific reason that resumes are often, if not actually outright faked, at least "enhanced", I've been contemplating starting a business in which I would perform resume screening for folks like you, for a fee. I don't really know how to structure it yet. I don't want to be a recruiter or headhunter. What I would like to do is to offer folks such as yourself, who already have resumes, my opinion as to the qual…

The only concrete things that you've suggested you would do is call colleges and previous employers' HR departments.

That's both pretty trivial, and there are lots of companies that already provide that service. They're usually marketed as background checks to do just before the offer, as you say, but I'm sure they could also do it up front as you're proposing.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#20
post #5

Job markets, even in tech, are quite tied to geography. From which area and perspective are you writing this? Knowing might help us discuss this subject better. I live in the Netherlands, where programmer salaries are way lower than in silicon valley, but I don't know of a single half-competent programmer without a job. All the hiring managers are complaining here just as you describe, but the net effect is that ever…

>Maybe the exploded salaries of the bay area take away any financial space an employer might have for on-the-job training? It's not like employers are keen on training anywhere else in the US either. American business executives have become culturally short-sighted and the unwillingness to train is part of that.

> It's not like employers are keen on training anywhere else in the US either.

Although I do not live in the US, I gather that like many countries I have lived in is the view is that training is no longer such a large responsibility of the employer and is rather costly.

However in my travels and work in Asia, there is a concept of bonding in many countries where an employee is offered a job and training and in return agrees to work for a company for X amount of time or pays the employer. This reduces the overhead in regards to the cost of training.

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