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I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

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I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#1
I know lots of engineers who are unable to find work.

I do believe the hiring managers who say they can't find the workers they need. What I don't believe is that the workers aren't out there, hoping to get hired.

I speculate that the reasons for the perceived - and ONLY perceived - shortage is that it's far more difficult for employers and potential employees to find each other. Another problem is that us engineers are expected to have real-world, paid experience in whatever technology the hiring company uses, rather than these companies providing on-the-job training.

At one time, a college degree and a demonstrable grasp of computing technology was all one needed. Companies were happy to train. No longer.

What really kills me is that when a new technology is introduced, one is _immediately_ required to know about it before getting a job where that technology will be used. Consider that Swift, a new programming language that Apple hopes will make it easier to write iOS Apps, has only been available for a few months, yet one cannot get a job writing Swift code, unless one already has PAID Swift experience on one's resume. It's not enough to just read a book. Neither is anyone willing to train.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#2
If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like:

http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-myth... - titled "The Myth of America's Tech-Talent Shortage: And what it should mean for immigration reform."

If you want the economic details, you might look at at http://www.epi.org/files/2013/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-... , which (among many things) points out that two people get a STEM degree for each STEM job available.

The general conclusion is that there is no shortage, and that complaints by various large businesses about a lack of trained people is a strategy to pay lower wages and spend less on training. This has been known for over a decade. Eg, http://www.cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/articles/2005/back130... concludes """Overwhelmingly, the H-1B program is used to import workers at the very bottom of the wage scale. The wide gap between wages for U.S. workers and H-1B workers helps explain why industry demand for H-1B workers is so high and why the annual visa quotas are being exhausted.

Many in industry have called for an increase in the number of H-1B visas, citing the early exhaustion of the cap as reflective of widespread need for skilled workers. However, the fact that very few H-1B workers are earning salaries as high as U.S. workers in the same profession would seem to refute that claim, and should make lawmakers wary of increasing the H-1B quota. The exhaustion of the H-1B quota may reflect employers' interest in lowering labor costs or widespread fraud rather than an insufficient number of visas."""

HN comments include those of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8656028 , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7372574 , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3689383 , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5804016 and more .. again, search HN for "shortage".

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#3
post #2

If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later. http://www.theatlantic.com/busin…

H1Bs are used not only to pay lower wages, but to enable employers to treat their employees poorly without fear that they will leave.

As a US Citizen, not only can I work for any US employer, I can reside here as well, even if I don't have a job. If I work for someone who treats me poorly, or who I regard as unethical, I will resign. One time I just walked right off the job - I left on a Friday, then never returned, due to an ethical lapse on the part of my employer. I gave no notice at all.

By contrast, a close friend who was a UK citizen, who worked with me on an H1B, was treated quite poorly by our employer. He was given a far heavier load, he was never given any help when he asked for it, in general he was taken advantage of. Really he was a far more skilled coder than I was at the time, but I was treated far better than he was.

I myself have no objection to foreign workers. If someone comes to the US hoping to make a better life for themselves than they are able to do in their Mother Country, I say more power to them. I know from hard experience that it totally sucks to be poor.

But I do feel they should be paid as much as a US Citizen would be.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#4
post #2

If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later. http://www.theatlantic.com/busin…

A common problem I find is that companies that have open positions either do not advertise those positions on their own websites, or even if they do, they don't link to those pages from anywhere else.

Lots of companies have "Careers" or "Jobs" links, typically in the footers of their pages but often at the top. They're real easy to find.

But some companies have no such links.

I speculate that this is because the HR department is granted access to a specific directory on the corporate webserver, but somehow it never occurs to them to ask the webmaster for a link from the homepage.

Another problem is that the URLs are sometimes hard to figure out. If I speculate there might be a Jobs page, I can often guess at the URL:

   http://www.example.com/jobs
   http://www.example.com/careers
   http://www.example.com/careers.aspx
But sometimes it's something really obscure like:

   http://www.example.com/corporate/join-our-team.html

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#5
Job markets, even in tech, are quite tied to geography. From which area and perspective are you writing this? Knowing might help us discuss this subject better.

I live in the Netherlands, where programmer salaries are way lower than in silicon valley, but I don't know of a single half-competent programmer without a job.

All the hiring managers are complaining here just as you describe, but the net effect is that everybody gets hired. Even the mediocre folks (note: I'm not referring to skill as in "decades of Swift experience" but "competent engineer, quick learner").

Maybe the exploded salaries of the bay area take away any financial space an employer might have for on-the-job training? People still have to create more value than they cost.

(note, I hope this is not the case, because I think programmers are grossly underpaid here in the Netherlands)

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#6
post #5

Job markets, even in tech, are quite tied to geography. From which area and perspective are you writing this? Knowing might help us discuss this subject better. I live in the Netherlands, where programmer salaries are way lower than in silicon valley, but I don't know of a single half-competent programmer without a job. All the hiring managers are complaining here just as you describe, but the net effect is that ever…

>Maybe the exploded salaries of the bay area take away any financial space an employer might have for on-the-job training?

It's not like employers are keen on training anywhere else in the US either.

American business executives have become culturally short-sighted and the unwillingness to train is part of that.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#7
post #2

If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later. http://www.theatlantic.com/busin…

H1Bs are used not only to pay lower wages, but to enable employers to treat their employees poorly without fear that they will leave. As a US Citizen, not only can I work for any US employer, I can reside here as well, even if I don't have a job. If I work for someone who treats me poorly, or who I regard as unethical, I will resign. One time I just walked right off the job - I left on a Friday, then never returned,…

[deleted]

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#8
post #5

Job markets, even in tech, are quite tied to geography. From which area and perspective are you writing this? Knowing might help us discuss this subject better. I live in the Netherlands, where programmer salaries are way lower than in silicon valley, but I don't know of a single half-competent programmer without a job. All the hiring managers are complaining here just as you describe, but the net effect is that ever…

I live in Vancouver, Washington (the "Original Vancouver", not Vancouver, British Columbia), but am looking for work in Portland, Oregon.

However I have also lived in Vancouver BC, Truro, Nova Scotia, St. John's, Newfoundland, Santa Cruz, California and Silicon Valley.

The claim that there was a tech worker shortage started to appear during the dot-com boom, but never really went away, even when the economy contracted during the dot-com crash and later, the subprime meltdown.

I have worked for a few companies that were happy to train. That typically happened when engineers who were experienced with the technology were not to be found at all. For example I was taught Python by a shop that was all-Python, quite a long time before it became popular. I was also taught Smalltalk at another shop, but that came after Smalltalk had declined in popularity.

In both cases the expense of the training was really quite minimal: I was given my regular pay to read a book, then write some practice code, for about a week, after which I was able to code productively, then was as productive as the rest of the staff after a month or so.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#9
post #2

If you do an HN search for "shortage" you'll see many links, to things like: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac... - which points out that it's not "difficult for employers and potential employees", giving an example of how Facebook decided to not employ the people who became the founders of WhatsApp, then paid $19 billion for their company a few years later. http://www.theatlantic.com/busin…

Relatively moderate nit: Using the WhatsApp founders is a very poor example. If you look at their resumes (VP of Eng at Yahoo for Brian, presumably a very senior/architect-level engineering role for Jan), I have no doubt they were interviewing at Facebook for architect/engineering director-level roles. Whether or not you get hired at that level obviously depends on much more than baseline coding competency.

Re: I Don't Agree That There Really Is a Tech Worker Shortage

#10
Here is an alternate point of view. I recently went through the process of hiring a programmer. I probably interviewed 30 candidates. All of them had the required knowledge and experience listed on their CV's. Guess how many could write a simple program in the language of their choice? Exactly 3.

Yes, there are many people with the right credentials. In my own personal experience, many of these people can't do the work. They either don't really enjoy what they do or they simply aren't smart enough. They got into this field because of the money.

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