The Open-Office Trap • Hacker News Board

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#171

Post by pjlegato » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 4:35 AM UTC

mkehrt wrote: post #130

pjlegato wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That a question is controversial does not in itself imply that there is no right answer and it's all just a matter of personal preference. The controversy tells us mainly something about the people holding the divergent opinions, such as the extent to which they embrace or reject the scientific method, and the extent to which they are aware of what scientific research exists. Science evolved precisely as a way to avo…

To hell with running a successful business. I'm interested in my happiness as an employee, and an open plan office is a thousand times better for that. Edit since I'm getting downvotes: All the articles I've seen about the pros and cons of open plan offices mostly focus on productivity. But, as an employee, I'm much more interested in my happiness than my productivity, above a reasonable minimum. These sorts of artic…

Er. According to the article, all of the studies also found that happiness as an employee suffers on almost all metrics in open plan offices.

Having happy employees is a key aspect of running a successful business.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#172

Post by pjlegato » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 4:45 AM UTC

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #161

pjlegato wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That a question is controversial does not in itself imply that there is no right answer and it's all just a matter of personal preference. The controversy tells us mainly something about the people holding the divergent opinions, such as the extent to which they embrace or reject the scientific method, and the extent to which they are aware of what scientific research exists. Science evolved precisely as a way to avo…

there is lots of subjectivity in what you chose as your "objective" measure. why are explaining how science works?

I explained how science works because the original post says that "strongly divergent opinions" is, in and of itself, probable evidence that the matter is "divisive but inconsequential." This proposition can only follow from an unscientific epistemology and worldview where anecdotal polls of opinion alone can be taken as the decisive factor in deciding whether a factual proposition is likely to be consequential or not.

Objective metrics are, by definition, those without subjectivity involved. Naturally there can be disputes over the details, or mistakes made, and through an iterative process errors are identified and corrected, moving arbitrarily close to the objective truth of the situation. Over time, this remedies the problem of individual mistakes and subjectivity being involved in the process.

At this stage, hundreds of studies have been done, so we are well along that path and any remaining errors in the thesis are likely to be minor and non-material.

If this is not true, everyone is welcome to come up with an experiment to falsify them all.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#173

Post by pjlegato » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 4:55 AM UTC

mkehrt wrote: post #128

pjlegato wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of the article is that the differences are empirically and objectively measurable on a wide variety of axes, and almost universally against the open office. It is not a question of personal preference. That is, there actually is a "right" answer that is the same for everyone. Measuring it is "science."

No, there really isn't a right answer. It may be that it decreases productivity and increases stress, but if it increases employee happiness (regardless of stress), that's a tradeoff that can be made. And the article definitely is less solid on happiness--it appears to vary. I'd certainly never, ever want to go back to an office, regardless of the toll an open plan may take on my productivity.

It's not about goal choice at all. "Productivity versus happiness" is not the issue.

The specific goal can vary and doesn't matter to the question of whether there is a "right answer." For any arbitrary goal, yes, there is actually a "right" objective answer on the question of what factors, if any, influence in general the ability to achieve that goal.

Incidentally, the article deals extensively with employee happiness in the form of "job dissatisfaction," which suffers (like almost all other metrics) in open plan offices.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#174

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 5:35 AM UTC

click170 wrote: post #113

ryandrake wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

Thank you for your comment, it provides perspective other than my own which is refreshing and valuable. I think one of the OPs points touches on this directly though. What is the ratio of questions asked to answers provided, or to put it another way, how many questions are you asking vs how many people come to you for help with their own question? I humbly submit that perhaps you are asking more questions than you ar…

Ratio changed as I grew up. As a fresh junior dev, you ask all the questions, as you get more and more senior, it inverts. I consider mentoring the junior folks and passing along whatever tribal knowledge that's not documented yet part of growing into a senior role and have no problem doing it. In fact, I'd rather someone ask me and break my concentration than not ask and go off re-implementing a linked list or something.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#175

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 5:39 AM UTC

jdbernard wrote: post #146

mtourne wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I would generally agree with what you said here. I'm curious if you've succeeded in finding an office environment that would let you work that way ? Unless you're working from home most of the time, it seems like "the management" would generally not be too keen to this.

No, I haven't. It's a big part of why I have changed jobs frequently over the last couple of years. It continues to be a source of frustration. Looking back on my comment I was more harsh than I intended and a lot of that is because I am so frustrated with the current standard working environment. If I didn't have a family to take care of I would be extremely tempted to leave software as a profession entirely because…

I didn't take any offense. As someone else upthread put it, the open-vs-cubicle-vs-office debate is full of opinion and personal preference. I was simply explaining mine, as was requested.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#176

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 5:43 AM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #125

ryandrake wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

I think open office is OK with very self restrained employees. I was in a pretty big company with super huge open floors, but globally everyone was quite, you would easily prefer to IM a person 10m away than to try to talk directly. Projects would have group IM sessions and it was the polite way to ask or share information. If some difficult point arises, there was a meeting space at 10 or 20 meters away, or there's…

Yes, it is essential to work out etiquette and you don't want to mash people together unless they're actively working on the same project. Don't put Chatty Cathy from Purchasing adjacent to the guys trying to design and build the product.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#177

Post by lakis » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 5:54 AM UTC

mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

  I work as a software engineer for the last 22 years. ~4 of them as engineer manager, the rest as an individual contributor. 
  I hate offices. I worked in Microsoft in an office and it was hell. I was alone. It was not a team. It was me. It was sometimes better to email somebody then walk around to talk to them.
  I love open office plans. Yes, it's disruptive. But if I want to tell somebody something, I lift my head and talk. Everybody can hear what is going on and they can tune in if they are interested. For people that have distraction problems, usually headphones work quite well.
  Of course, I assume that people talk quietly and not scream their head off.
  BTW, I am usually the one that give advice and information instead the other way around.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#178

Post by lakis » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 5:57 AM UTC

awjr wrote: post #106

ryandrake wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

I have to say, what you describe as a manager seems to be more about the benefit to yourself and the way you 'control' your developers and less about trying to provide an environment that is efficient for your devs to deliver code. A lot of the benefits you think you get from an open plan office seem to be achievable through tools like slack.com . Open plan really really sucks as a developer.

  After 22 years in software development, I have to say I am tired of all the new tools that supposedly solve all the world problems only to be abandoned in the next quarter.
  There is nothing wrong to talk to somebody when you want to tell them something. A lot of times it's more efficient then email, IMs or other more fancier tools.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#179

Post by pixelcort » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 7:02 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #114

pixelcort wrote: post #96

I'm curious about private offices and regions. While it was possible to find companies in the Bay Area that offered private offices, I have yet to find any here in Tokyo. I've assumed it's because real estate in Tokyo is more expensive, but what about other cities around the world?

I work in Beijing and we have 4 desk cubicles in an open space (so you get cubicle walls and around each quad. What is nice is that they put the open office area around the exterior, so I got a window! In contrast, we have offices for the level 65+ crowd, and they are quite unappealing to me because of they are interior, no natural light windows. Now I just have to avoid getting promoted.

When you say level 65, do you mean the 64th floor or seniority?

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#180

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 9:17 AM UTC

me2i81 wrote: post #42

modoc wrote: post #20

The open/closed office thing seems like chocolate vs. vanilla. Some people love one and hate the other. Some are okay with both. I've worked in both, at several companies. I generally prefer open office plans. Clearly other people don't. Everyone is different. There is no RIGHT answer, just RIGHT for you, or for your team...

It's often not the team who decides. I've also been told (but it's just hearsay) that you can't get the highest LEED certification for your groovy new office complex if you have individual offices, so the PR value of that is factored in as well.

I'd really like to see a citation on that.