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The Open-Office Trap

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Re: The Open-Office Trap

#121

Post by mkehrt »

Having worked in a place with offices and now being in a place with an open plan, I'll never go back.

There's light, there's space, there's people around, I have a better idea of what people are working on, I learn by hearing people talk, it's easy to move to a new desk if I want, the list goes on and on. It's so much better for me mentally that there's no comparison.

I think this is an area people can disagree reasonably; some people just like quiet and their own space. It's really a matter of taste.

I also really think I'm less productive this way, but, hey, I care about my mental health more than my productivity. Of course, employers may want to balance this differently :-).

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#122

Post by serve_yay »

mrb wrote: post #43

Well, Facebook is building the world's largest open bullpen office, with 2800 workers in 1 room(!) I wonder what they think of this research that shows open office plans being detrimental. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/27/article-2331658-1A... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2584738/Now-T...

OMG, that's terrible. 2800 people in a room?!

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#123

Post by michaelochurch »

shortstuffsushi wrote: post #98
michaelochurch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

This seems like an unfairly-condescending post to me. The last line primarily. I don't think that having an open office implies the stereotypical "nerf gun wars, billiards, and foosball" environment (or at least it doesn't at the company I'm working for). Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Certainly those conditions exist, but it's not fair to generalize it that…

Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important.

Of course it doesn't. Most of them have no choice.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#124

Post by pjlegato »

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #64

just based on the strongly divergent opinions, maybe this falls into the category of "divisive yet inconsequential", like emacs vs vim or brace placement?

That a question is controversial does not in itself imply that there is no right answer and it's all just a matter of personal preference. The controversy tells us mainly something about the people holding the divergent opinions, such as the extent to which they embrace or reject the scientific method, and the extent to which they are aware of what scientific research exists.

Science evolved precisely as a way to avoid this social noise and find the true status of the subject, through the use of empirical observation and repeatable experiments that test specific hypotheses.

Could there be errors in these studies? Sure, and science has a process for dealing with that possibility, too: create another experiment that empirically falsifies one of their conclusions.

The whole point of the article is that the differences are not inconsequential at all. Numerous academic studies have objectively measured many differences in many different specific environments, and show that the open office is worse in almost all ways related to running a successful business.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#125

Post by hrktb »

ryandrake wrote: post #94
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

I think open office is OK with very self restrained employees.

I was in a pretty big company with super huge open floors, but globally everyone was quite, you would easily prefer to IM a person 10m away than to try to talk directly. Projects would have group IM sessions and it was the polite way to ask or share information.

If some difficult point arises, there was a meeting space at 10 or 20 meters away, or there's the coffee corner otherwise.

When discussion that atmosphere with people working in other fields, retail for instance, they would find it unhuman and creepy, but I think it really strikes the right balance. I moved to another company more 'startup' like in the athmosphere, with people cracking jokes Here and there, and it's just pure hell from a work POV.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#126

Post by munin »

ryandrake wrote: post #94
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

> Whenever I want I can stand up and do a quick and dirty eyeball scan of the office and gauge who's deep in thought and shouldn't be disturbed, who maybe needs help with something, who's picking their nose on Facebook. Project goals, milestones, etc. can be on prominent display on the walls, so everyone can easily reference them--no more "oh, I didn't know we were releasing next Monday" excuses.

I worked in an office like this onc- oh, no, what you're describing sounds more like 5th period English than an office. but seriously, it sounds like you're missing a lot of trust in the ability and autonomy of your reports. I feel bad for your reports, it sounds like you either need to let the axe swing and hire adults or learn to trust and delegate.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#127

Post by jdbernard »

ryandrake wrote: post #94
mwfunk wrote: post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help. I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years…

There are a couple of things in what you said that raise some pretty big flags for me:

nobody gets to hidey-hole in their office, pretending to not be part of a team.

Seriously? That's what you think people are doing in their office: hiding from the team? I love being part of a good team. I love white-boarding broad design. I love sitting down and hammering out the nitty-gritty details. I even like pair programming and working one-on-one. But I am a classic introvert in that being around people is physically draining. I enjoy company and I'm good company, but it wears me out. Putting me in the same room with 5 other guys for 8 hours a day is a good way to get me burned out and exhausted with your project.

The whole business about having to waste an hour to get back into the zone after an interruption is, frankly, total BS.

This makes me seriously question the kind of work you've been doing. An hour may be on the long side, but there are lots of things I've worked on where an interruption will easily cost 15-30 minutes and have a much bigger impact on my willpower and focus. This is compounded by the fact that I'm mentally exhausted from constantly being in a room full of people.

Tracking a bug down through three layers of application, framework, and security code, for example. Writing that crypto implementation that has to be right the first time or customers get owned is another. Studying that new framework that you want the team to learn because it's the new shiny is another.

where they can go away into if they really need that occasional alone time

Look, I get that you're the boss and you get to tell me what to do. I want the team to succeed, so I'm not going to cause problems; I'll adapt to whatever you've decided we're going to do. But if you really want me at peak productivity you need to understand that alone time is my default mode, not something I need occasionally. I know I'm not the only one like this.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#128

Post by mkehrt »

pjlegato wrote: post #115
modoc wrote: post #20

The open/closed office thing seems like chocolate vs. vanilla. Some people love one and hate the other. Some are okay with both. I've worked in both, at several companies. I generally prefer open office plans. Clearly other people don't. Everyone is different. There is no RIGHT answer, just RIGHT for you, or for your team...

The whole point of the article is that the differences are empirically and objectively measurable on a wide variety of axes, and almost universally against the open office. It is not a question of personal preference. That is, there actually is a "right" answer that is the same for everyone. Measuring it is "science."

No, there really isn't a right answer. It may be that it decreases productivity and increases stress, but if it increases employee happiness (regardless of stress), that's a tradeoff that can be made. And the article definitely is less solid on happiness--it appears to vary. I'd certainly never, ever want to go back to an office, regardless of the toll an open plan may take on my productivity.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#129

Post by bobbles »

DigitalSea wrote: post #67

I have primarily worked in open plan offices and even though a few studies have indicated that they are worse than closed office spaces, honestly sometimes some environments thrive with open planned spaces, others do not. I am currently in my mid twenties and most people in my age bracket have not really experienced a non open plan office space, it is all they have ever known. I have worked at a couple of corporate c…

I work in an open plan office and skype people that sit next to me all the time.. it's just a better form of communication for a lot of things

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#130

Post by mkehrt »

pjlegato wrote: post #124
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #64

just based on the strongly divergent opinions, maybe this falls into the category of "divisive yet inconsequential", like emacs vs vim or brace placement?

That a question is controversial does not in itself imply that there is no right answer and it's all just a matter of personal preference. The controversy tells us mainly something about the people holding the divergent opinions, such as the extent to which they embrace or reject the scientific method, and the extent to which they are aware of what scientific research exists. Science evolved precisely as a way to avo…

To hell with running a successful business. I'm interested in my happiness as an employee, and an open plan office is a thousand times better for that.

Edit since I'm getting downvotes: All the articles I've seen about the pros and cons of open plan offices mostly focus on productivity. But, as an employee, I'm much more interested in my happiness than my productivity, above a reasonable minimum. These sorts of articles tend to ignore that tradeoff.

This article does discuss happiness somewhat, but the results are less clear than those for productivity. I think it's pretty clearly something people disagree on, but this fact tends to get swept under the rug by authors who focus on the productivity losses.

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