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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#611

Post by malandrew »

Terr_ wrote: post #567
snowwrestler wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is already illegal to pay H1B visa holders less than "the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher." http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio... Thus, when I hear people complain of companies who hire H1Bs only because they want to pay them less, I always want to ask, "why haven't you reported them?" Either they don't actually know that the companies are exclusively pa…

When I hear people retort that "companies aren't allowed to do that", I always want to say: "Did you try a simple web-search to find out how they do it anyway?" For example, there are loopholes in both salary-calculation and also in terms of crafting hideously specific (and not entirely honest) requirements and then claiming nobody local can fill them.

Yeah. The first example I cited in this comment[0] looks like one of those "hideously specific (and not entirely honest) requirements" that no one is going to be able to fill or even consider filling.

If you cite a job with high requirements and a relatively low associated wage, you're essentially describing a job that only foreign talent is going to be able and willing to fill. I don't know a single person that meets the criteria for that position and isn't earning way more already. What self-respecting domestic candidate with the freedom to change jobs freely and that knows his worth would ever apply for such a position?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8690697

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#612

Post by dashboardfront »

UK-AL wrote: post #585
dashboardfront wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I was saying at all, but alright. If you're interested in the topic, look up utility curves, income effect, and substitution effect in a microeconomics textbook. It'll probably have a much better explanation than I can communicate through text (unless I start making graphs, which would be a bit time consuming). Here's a copy paste of my explanation on reddit though (where this topic also constantly co…

I think you need a certain amount of sq ft regardless. Most people aren't going to trade living in a tiny room for more stuff. Your living area is probably No.1 contributor to quality of life.

> Your living area is probably No.1 contributor to quality of life.

That might be true for you. Everyone has different indifference curves determined by the utility they place on different goods.

As for sq. feet minimums, at lower levels of sq ft. you will place higher utility on marginal sq. feet, sure, and diminishing returns will probably not have kicked in.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#613

Post by dominotw »

starfishjenga wrote: post #14

If this guy is starved for talent couldn't he just increase what he's willing to pay and steal people from other tech companies? (There are a number of people who would be willing to jump ship for the right #s I'm sure.) This seems to be where BusinessWeek is correct. At the end of the day engineers should be getting paid more.

>If this guy is starved for talent couldn't he just increase what he's willing to pay

Would you buy a hamburger for 100$? You cannot "just increase" what you are willing to pay. You are limited by market economics.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#614

Post by dashboardfront »

mbreese wrote: post #463
dashboardfront wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing might very well be 2-3x (or more) expensive, but not all goods have gone up 2-3x more. This allows for an adjustment of your consumption bundle; your housing is not going to be as large, but you might have access to a greater amount of other goods. Of course, you can choose to easily make it 2-3x more expensive if you desire. Family makes this difficult because your personal indifference curve places higher u…

You have the same access to goods almost anywhere in the US. The basic problem is that certain basic needs (energy, housing, child care) cost 2-3X more in the Bay Area than the Midwest. The only things that isn't the case for are food and transportation, which are slightly more expensive, but not as nearly as much. Transportation may be slightly cheaper out here, but not by a significant margin. Your idea of a consum…

The idea of a consumption bundle is a microeconomic theory that has a lot of evidence behind it and is generally accepted in the community. It's not really my idea.

There is no certain minimum size that you need; you simply place a lot of utility of living space as opposed to other goods up to a certain point, at which diminishing returns kick in. The amount of utility you place clearly increases as you have more family members to take care of. In the case of an intern, this is generally not an issue.

There are also other purchases besides food and transportation that do not increase; the cost of travel and vacationing, for instance. Technology generally remains the same cost throughout the US. Clothing, I'd imagine, doesn't increase too much.

> I was mainly replying to your assertion that it isn't 2-3X more expensive to live in the Bay Area than the Midwest. I'm sorry to tell you that it is.

It can be. It depends on the utility you place on sq ft as opposed to all other goods. However, it is not an axiom that one needs 3x the money to live in the Bay in order to remain at the same indifference curve level as they previously did in the Midwest.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#615

Post by dragonwriter »

jbooth wrote: post #401
ep103 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.

Traditional immigration proceedings? You mean the system where if you're from China or India, you have to wait 3-5X as long for a green card as people from western europe? Yeah, that system sounds great. Dunno why people in software engineering of all industries would have a problem with that system.

So why not just fix that system. Its simple to do -- for instance, keep in-total quotas but eliminate per-country quotas and the misfeature you point to is eliminated instantly.

Per country quotas are a mechanism which forces per-origin-country supply to be misaligned with per-origin-country demand.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#616

Post by vtbose »

briffle wrote: post #431
molmalo wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternatively, I would be okay with eliminating the lottery and giving visas out on the basis of the premium companies are willing to pay over the salary a domestic worker would be paid. If your company is willing to pay 2.0x foo for a position, then you will get the H1-B visa ahead of a company only willing to pay 1.5x foo. The floor would be set at something like 1.1x foo. That would only help the largest compani…

Then you take that premium, and put it in a scholarship fund for STEM students....

I think something similar is already being done- http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/ilink/docView/PUBLA...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#617

Post by nitrogen »

anjc wrote: post #394
barrkel wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US. It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived ov…

> There's a certain amount of tech talent at any given technical ability level available worldwide Surely then wages would be skyrocketing for that limited number of qualified workers, rather than remaining static, which they have. This is what has happened in the past in the tech industry, and it's what happens in other industries. Supply and demand, as you said. > paying more won't increase the supply quickly enoug…

There was that whole no-poaching collusion among the tech giants that kept wages from rising for a while.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#618

Post by snowwrestler »

malandrew wrote: post #611
Terr_ wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I hear people retort that "companies aren't allowed to do that", I always want to say: "Did you try a simple web-search to find out how they do it anyway?" For example, there are loopholes in both salary-calculation and also in terms of crafting hideously specific (and not entirely honest) requirements and then claiming nobody local can fill them.

Yeah. The first example I cited in this comment[0] looks like one of those "hideously specific (and not entirely honest) requirements" that no one is going to be able to fill or even consider filling. If you cite a job with high requirements and a relatively low associated wage, you're essentially describing a job that only foreign talent is going to be able and willing to fill. I don't know a single person that meet…

High requirements? The only experience requirement is "Two (2) years of experience in providing technical service support." Even with a master's degree, $92,000 seems reasonable to me for someone with only 2 years of support experience.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#619

Post by malandrew »

snowwrestler wrote: post #618
malandrew wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. The first example I cited in this comment[0] looks like one of those "hideously specific (and not entirely honest) requirements" that no one is going to be able to fill or even consider filling. If you cite a job with high requirements and a relatively low associated wage, you're essentially describing a job that only foreign talent is going to be able and willing to fill. I don't know a single person that meet…

High requirements? The only experience requirement is "Two (2) years of experience in providing technical service support." Even with a master's degree, $92,000 seems reasonable to me for someone with only 2 years of support experience.

What about the other requirements like having a master's degree in computer science, EE, math or a related engineering field?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#620

Post by ahomescu1 »

codeonfire wrote: post #603
snowwrestler wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really a contract that some Americans would like to impose on other Americans. The U.S. is a free country; that's the social contract. People are free to live where they want, associate with whom they want, and speak whatever language they want. Other people are free to accomodate them to the degree they wish, or not. But the idea that you're not "really" American unless you fit some predefined set of charact…

You are right. In America we deplore things like bribery, oppression of women, caste systems, rule of law, human trafficking, honor killings, etc. We will impose that social contract on anyone who migrates here. Even if you are Sir Elton John, you are just Elton John here. If you bring slave servants to the US and enslave them here, as has happened, you'll be thrown in prison. It's not about language.

> In America we deplore things like [...], rule of law, [...]

Is that supposed to be in there, or did you mean something else?

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