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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#461

Post by sliverstorm »

valar_m wrote: post #444
sliverstorm wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in comple…

Saying "You" when not addressing anyone in particular is a classic dog whistle technique. Everyone in the audience knows exactly who you're talking about, and plausible deniability is preserved for future accusations of racism/bigotry. Of course, silverstorm did not actually explain anything at all. All he did was repeat a few standard dog whistle arguments used by racists with a couple of geek culture references thr…

If I'm arguing, what am I arguing for? Because it isn't less immigration. If I could have my way, we'd abolish H1B's and Visas and instead simply grant citizenship to basically anyone who wanted it (excepting, I don't know, internationally wanted criminals?).

Well, maybe there is still a place for visas if the person only wants to work in the US for a while and their birth country does not allow dual citizenship. But that's beside the point.

As for integrating, even people who completely refuse to integrate can be here- that's fine. Personally, I just (selfishly) want them to integrate, so I can meet them and talk with them. It's no different from the way that I want to be friends with my neighbors. I'm not pissed if they don't want to be friendly- just sad.

I was just trying to acknowledge that complete and total refusal to integrate does happen (some of my friends growing up had parents like that). That doesn't inform my opinions on policy- they are still welcome to be here.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#462

Post by valar_m »

dasil003 wrote: post #421
sliverstorm wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in comple…

The reason is because it's typically ignorant xenophobic racists who complain the loudest about x or y group not assimilating. Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells. Let's step back a minute: what is the big deal with people attempting to preserve their culture when they come to the US? Isn't it a free country? And materially I don't see how it harms anything because the American…

This is a really great example of how powerful the dog whistle techniques used by racists can actually be.

Your instincts picked up on something from silverstorm's comment, but a lack of concrete evidence made it very difficult to say out loud what you were actually thinking. You were forced to go from:

this offensively racist image you've got in your head

All the way back to:

Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells.

I went into silverstorm's use of dog whistle techniques a little deeper in my comment above, but the evolution of your exchange with him really demonstrates how effective it can be as a tool for perpetuating racist views with immunity from criticism. It is a strategy based on controlling the conversation and playing off of several deeply ingrained societal tendencies, and it works.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#463

Post by mbreese »

dashboardfront wrote: post #375
mbreese wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not true at all, yet this is constantly repeated like it's fact. That's because it is true... I moved from the Midwest to the peninsula 3 years ago (for my wife's work). I made roughly those numbers there and here and the standard of living was roughly the same, maybe even dropped a little. Living in Silicon Valley is easily 2-3X more expensive than living in a place like Indianapolis or Columbus, OH. You honestly…

Housing might very well be 2-3x (or more) expensive, but not all goods have gone up 2-3x more. This allows for an adjustment of your consumption bundle; your housing is not going to be as large, but you might have access to a greater amount of other goods. Of course, you can choose to easily make it 2-3x more expensive if you desire. Family makes this difficult because your personal indifference curve places higher u…

You have the same access to goods almost anywhere in the US. The basic problem is that certain basic needs (energy, housing, child care) cost 2-3X more in the Bay Area than the Midwest. The only things that isn't the case for are food and transportation, which are slightly more expensive, but not as nearly as much. Transportation may be slightly cheaper out here, but not by a significant margin.

Your idea of a consumption bundle is appealing, but not very practical... you are assuming that there are things that can be adjusted, but for many, that just isn't the case. If you don't have a family, you might be able to get away with living in a smaller place. But if you do have one, for any given standard of living, there is a certain minimum size that you need. And the increase in costs in housing severely limit the flexibility that you might have in other areas.

I was mainly replying to your assertion that it isn't 2-3X more expensive to live in the Bay Area than the Midwest. I'm sorry to tell you that it is.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#464

Post by linkregister »

angersock wrote: post #160
teacup50 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at Bay Area rent lately?

Somebody's got to take advantage of these kids. More seriously--there's a lot of talent outside that place, and if companies were willing to pay those same wages (or even 80%) elsewhere in the country, this "talent shortage" would disappear as soon as the first paycheck cleared.

Companies do pay about 80% elsewhere. NYC (100%), Northern Virginia (80%), and Central Maryland (80%) come to mind.

And some of the big companies (Amazon, Google, HP, Microsoft) recruit across the country, offering full relocation.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#465

Post by nojvek »

bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

Why do people assume the H1-B's are always cheap. MS pays their H1B's incredibly well. Yes its true H1B makes the employee loyal to the company for a long time until greencard. Working crazy long hours are the very norm.

But on the other side every good dev I know from my uni in Aus is sucked up by MS, GOOG or FB. They had offers before they even graduated. The most they could get in Aus was 50-80k AUD. In US 120k+ is easy.

From the Australian side they legitimately have a talent issue as talent gets sucked to US. From the US side, I see a huge income gap. Tech pays so well the guys are buying big cars and being lavish with their inflated egos. The average american is still on 50k. They can't keep up with the rent rises.

Careful what you wish for. I wish other parts of the world could achieve the size of tech the US west coast has.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#466

Post by MarkMc »

brandonl222 wrote: post #165
jarjoura wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

Do you really think your situation represents the majority of H1B employers?

Does it have to be a majority for the H1B system to be considered 'broken'?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#467

Post by nojvek »

makmanalp wrote: post #181
protonfish wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I am sitting, it looks like more than just cost, it's about control. If a smart mouth prima donna like myself lost his job, it would suck, yes, but if I were an H1-B I could be deported . If I were in that position I would think twice about telling my boss something he didn't want to hear. But it's worse than that. An Indian coworker once shared an unsubstantiated story about how an unscrupulous recruiter…

Without replying to the rest of your comment: > an unscrupulous recruiter brought over a bunch of IT workers from India and forced them to work for essentially nothing. One call to immigration from their employer and they are sent back One call to immigration and the company would be quite fucked with horrible fees and probably an audit / prosecution for fraud and human rights abuses. One does NOT mess with this. The…

When someone is paying you 10X to what you can possibly learn in India, you're willing to absorb shit. Yes in US terms it could be peanuts but in Indian terms its quite a bit. Work 2-3 years in US and save well, the guy could buy a nice house and India and live decently.

No one apart from the US has figured out how to build billion dollar companies like popcorn.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#468

Post by exelius »

x0x0 wrote: post #347
exelius wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that professional services firms really create the most value - far from it actually. They're just able to pay more because there's relatively little risk involved for them.

yet you admitted it 3 comments up. pay = value.

It's two different markets - professional services firms have far greater negotiating power and sales forces than individuals.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#469

Post by maxxxxx »

analyst74 wrote: post #447
pm90 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I have actually been considering a move, not just because of Immigration, but because of all of Canada's natural beauty. I also kinda like snow and cold weather and maple syrup. Here is one important question though: is it a city that you would recommend for young people (in their twenties)? Or is it nicer once you have a family and are looking to settle down etc.? And besides Amazon, is there any demand for te…

Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and the industrial center, lots of different sectors and jobs, thriving start-up scene, and all the things other major cities would offer. Biggest problem you'll face is that we mix-use metric and imperial units, i.e. pounds for weight, feet for height, celsius for temperature, meter for distance.

And you need some warm clothing!

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#470

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dllthomas wrote: post #384
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the problem is nurture rather than nature then shouldn't we be sending them to school rather than prison?

Presented with an individual, it actually doesn't matter whether the problem was nature or nurture. What matters is what you can do about it now. Bear in mind that I brought this up as a possible objection that needed addressing, to the argument "we don't need more average minds - look at all the average minds we're not using".

> Presented with an individual, it actually doesn't matter whether the problem was nature or nurture. What matters is what you can do about it now.

But that's the problem. Doing something with the late 30s unskilled laborer with no job is something we might be able to just break even on, or at least not lose too much in retraining for humanitarian reasons, and doing that is arguably better than abandoning those people to a life of crime and prison. But importing a significant number of new people who are already in that situation is not an economically positive proposition.

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