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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#421

Post by dasil003 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #326
danudey wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, an…

Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in comple…

The reason is because it's typically ignorant xenophobic racists who complain the loudest about x or y group not assimilating.

Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells.

Let's step back a minute: what is the big deal with people attempting to preserve their culture when they come to the US? Isn't it a free country? And materially I don't see how it harms anything because the American culture, derided thought it may be by some, is actually extremely alluring and powerful, so even if the parents are nostalgic for the old country the kids are going to gravitate towards assimilation. Where is the harm?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#422

Post by LLWM »

foldr wrote: post #209
NhanH wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessary disagree with you on this: if there is a will, there is a way. Regardless of how the immigration law is, even if you make it "No immigration at all", someone will find a way to get in. But that's far and far away from "standard and normalized", which implies something is accessible to standard and more average people. The top .5 or 1% (as in aptitude and willpower) will always find ways to get thing…

> if there is a will, there is a way I'm not so sure about this. I'm a British citizen who's been living in the US for most of the past 7 years (as a student or doing academic jobs), but I can't see any easy way for me to get a job in the tech industry in the US. Perhaps a big company might be willing to sponsor me for an H1B. Apart from that there is just no realistic option that I'm aware of. What other visa could…

You could seduce and marry an American.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#423

Post by anjc »

refurb wrote: post #260
LordHumungous wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

You linked to an article that references a study. Care to share the original data? The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can't legally pay below that.

Many countries are lowering the wage requirement. My country (Ireland) is lowering it from ~30k to ~25k. I'm pretty sure the US is too?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#424

Post by cableshaft »

DigitalSea wrote: post #393
300bps wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you said: it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" Then you said: The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Your second statement contradicts your first statement. Wh…

At face value, I can see why you think that. Supply and demand, as supply dwindles and demand increases, the price increases as well, right? Simple economics. I understand it and I get it, but I don't think the instance of developers that it is fair that bigger companies with larger profits and reach should be able to take all of the talent in the area by offering above average salaries to get them to sign. Smaller c…

Going off of what another poster said: I'd agree to that $125k salary if I could work remotely. I'm in the Chicago area, and it's significantly more difficult to find jobs that are willing to pay that much out here (most jobs that advertise their ranges are more in the $80-100k area), whereas it's trivial to get a job offer as low as $125k if I were to move to the west coast (I was interviewing for jobs advertising $140k+).

But I've been trying to stay in the Chicago area because that's where my social network and family are, and I actually want to consider buying a house someday, instead of it being a silly pipe dream out there.

I'm sure I'm not the only person like this. Hiring managers don't immediately have to go "hey there's no one local, let's go overseas!". If you're willing to open yourself up to having employees that work remotely (and programming jobs require people to be left alone by themselves 90% of the time anyway), then you may find it easier to find candidates.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#425

Post by guyzero »

cylinder wrote: post #417
deskamess wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after enterin…

If the candidate is so supremely talented they can get an O-1 pretty easily. Kind of ends this "H1B is for talent" argument quickly.

An O-1 requires "extraordinary ability by sustained national or international acclaim and must be coming temporarily to the United States to continue work in the area of extraordinary ability."

How many engineers have "international acclaim"?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#426

Post by guyzero »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #92
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

"We" don't need anything in this. Immigrants don't assimilate the moment they get here. They never have. The old saying is, "The parents don't speak English, the children are bilingual, the grandchildren speak English". There have always been ethnic neighborhoods, as long as there's been immigration. Having said that, H1Bs are indentured servitude.

Unlike a TN visa for Canadians or an Australian E-3 visa, the H-1B is an immigrant visa that is one of the few paths to a green card.

So they're actually the opposite of indentured servitude where there's a path to permanent residency and citizenship. Unlike many other visas that people use to work in the US.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#427

Post by snowwrestler »

malandrew wrote: post #298
barrkel wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US. It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived ov…

I'm a software engineer and green card holder from Brazil and there is nothing I want more than to see many of my friends who work in Brazil have the opportunity to come here to work in a great industry. That being said, both you and the anon person you replied to are right about the situation. The position you came to fill is a relatively rare skill here in the US and it helps the US to bring in talent from abroad,…

It is already illegal to pay H1B visa holders less than "the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher."

http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio...

Thus, when I hear people complain of companies who hire H1Bs only because they want to pay them less, I always want to ask, "why haven't you reported them?"

Either they don't actually know that the companies are exclusively paying H1Bs less, or they don't believe that the government will enforce the salary floor. Either way, raising the salary floor from 1x to 1.5x probably won't address their concerns.

edited for clarity

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#428

Post by snowwrestler »

anjc wrote: post #404
illumen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any evidence? Otherwise I don't believe you.

There's lots of evidence out there. Probably the most obvious signal for you should be that companies are complaining about a lack of workers, but wages are stagnant. Or another signal might be the fact that 50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech. If you want more proof of funniness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Or if you want proof of major…

Do you have a citation for "50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech"?

Many STEM graduates choose not to work in tech, for example math majors who go into finance, or chem majors who go into consulting. And, many STEM grads are not actually qualified to work in tech. A BS in biology is certainly a STEM degree but that person is not likely to help scale your Rails application.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#429

Post by anjc »

thrwy10 wrote: post #268
thedufer wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point you take issue with is really debatable. The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. You didn't touch on this at all, so I'm not really sure what your point is. I think you're debating a strawman.

> The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. Does that mean being a citizen entitles one to a job regardless of qualification? Also, does that mean 100% of the US should be employed before bringing in foreign workers? I think such generalizations ar…

> Does that mean being a citizen entitles one to a job regardless of qualification? Also, does that mean 100% of the US should be employed before bringing in foreign workers?

You're making up arguments and arguing with yourself here. Nobody said that being a citizen entitles a person to a job. But the law states that a H1B visa can be extended only IF a citizen can't be found that fulfils the requirements. Companies have been caught flouting this law, and purposely not finding citizens. You seem to have a problem with "every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting", but, that's the point of a H1B.

> The conspiracy theory that claims that H1s are all low paid workers falls flat when examined closely.

They are not conspiracy theories, and they do not fall flat. The information is all open and available.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#430

Post by x0x0 »

vonsnowman wrote: post #274
dllthomas wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It starts to become more relevant when you start to make more ties, and realize you might suddenly be yanked away from your new friends (and possibly SO). I'm certainly not saying it's the motivation in every case - doubtless it is often about costs and sometimes genuinely about talent.

Don't get me wrong, the terms of the H1B are pretty terrible but that should not detract from Yuri's point that quotas and other immigration restrictions have a serious impact on smaller companies' ability to hire the best employees. Similarly a lot of people talking about salary are missing the point. Sure, there might be more candidates if the salary offered were higher but even if they had the right skills (and th…

dude, it's just a job. You're not making the world a better place. You're building slightly better corporate file sharing. That's it. It's a dropbox or box or btsync competitor tuned for corporate clients.

And it's just a job. Not a mission.

People jump out of bed to go skiing, or cure cancer, or research fundamental physics, or to practice medicine, or to help the needy, or to help animals, or to put a human on mars, or for 1000 other reasons.

Not to steal a point of marketshare from office 365.

But I do think I see why aerofs has trouble hiring.

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