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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#281

Post by klipt »

thedufer wrote: post #241
thrwy10 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. I disagree with this statement. I am on an H1 and know several other people who are on H1s and can testify that this is a generalization. There are many ways to end up on an H1, overseas body shops is one avenue and American grad schools are another. Most H1s I know, myself included, graduated from good schools, have worked har…

I don't think the point you take issue with is really debatable. The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. You didn't touch on this at all, so I'm not really sure what your point is. I think you're debating a strawman.

> every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting

That's assuming the job market is entirely inelastic, which seems unlikely.

By that same logic, every foreigner not allowed to start a company in the US is N jobs citizens aren't getting.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#282

Post by jakevn »

DINKDINK wrote: post #235
LordHumungous wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

Why would you expect them to be paid the same. Should something that ships from Alaska cost the same as something shipped from your next door neighbor?

Companies can take advantage of situations for profit, and that's their right, but the argument needs to be qualified so that we aren't speaking past one another.

Are we talking about "should be able to" or "it's the right (for whatever definition of right) thing to do"? I'm going to go with the latter since I have little opinion on the law.

For example, a company has the right to ask its programmers to work 80 hours. It's their right to squeeze as much out of their employees as they can. Should they?

Should companies be taking advantage of low wages in other countries instead of paying market value? They certainly can chase the profit, but we're talking about people, not goods. At the end of the day, they're paying a person less simply because they know that they have little bargaining room.

Some consider it unethical, others do not.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#283

Post by arenaninja »

shas3 wrote: post #186
protonfish wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I am sitting, it looks like more than just cost, it's about control. If a smart mouth prima donna like myself lost his job, it would suck, yes, but if I were an H1-B I could be deported . If I were in that position I would think twice about telling my boss something he didn't want to hear. But it's worse than that. An Indian coworker once shared an unsubstantiated story about how an unscrupulous recruiter…

I am surprised each time I see this kind of casual bigotry on HN. Seriously, "school in India called, Institute of Suspiciously Obscure Technologies"? I don't think there's any other way of reading your comment other than "most Indians lie on resumes and in interviews." It's understandable seeing this kind of stuff on reddit from 13 year-olds. But I don't understand what vantage makes you make such sweeping generaliz…

> I don't think there's any other way of reading your comment other than "most Indians lie on resumes and in interviews."

That's not what I got out of reading that same snippet

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#284

Post by drpgq »

ryandrake wrote: post #176
x0x0 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no shortage of talent; there's a shortage of talent that wants to earn $100 - $130k (plus 0.2% of an A-round company! Golden paper handcuffs! Whoo!) to live in sf, an area probably more expensive than Manhattan. Without being Manhattan, or having decent public services. Do we have a shortage of talent of the type I just described? Emphatically yes. Does that mean there is in any way a shortage? Emphatically…

In my view, anyone who tries to argue that there is a "shortage" of tech should disclose the compensation package they are offering for the tech positions they are trying to fill.

There was somebody complaining about a shortage of software workers on the Buffalo subreddit recently. When prodded he admitted he was offering $35K a year.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#285

Post by dllthomas »

vonsnowman wrote: post #274
dllthomas wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It starts to become more relevant when you start to make more ties, and realize you might suddenly be yanked away from your new friends (and possibly SO). I'm certainly not saying it's the motivation in every case - doubtless it is often about costs and sometimes genuinely about talent.

Don't get me wrong, the terms of the H1B are pretty terrible but that should not detract from Yuri's point that quotas and other immigration restrictions have a serious impact on smaller companies' ability to hire the best employees. Similarly a lot of people talking about salary are missing the point. Sure, there might be more candidates if the salary offered were higher but even if they had the right skills (and th…

Sure, I don't think I disagree with any of that. And don't misunderstand me, either - I think the power dynamic of the H1B can be damaging; I'm not opposed to immigration generally.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#286

Post by nardi »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

The classic economics mistake of focusing on a single group to the detriment of the whole.

Yes, there is a group of local engineers that is hurt by companies importing cheaper, better labor from overseas. But everyone else benefits.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#287

Post by StylusEater »

> There's a certain amount of tech talent at any given technical ability level available worldwide, and only a fraction of it is in the US.

And that is the "crux" of the problem. There will always be a shortage of great engineers/programmers/anything ... isn't that why we call them "great"?

I'm more concerned with pipeline. Companies continually push for these changes with reckless regard for grooming local talent. We're experiencing an artificial shortage because the global pool of "great talent" isn't getting bigger fast enough and it never will ... such a joke.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#288

Post by Squarel »

sliverstorm wrote: post #247
halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

How much of an issue within the tech industry, or the visa type that is being discussed in the OP?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#290

Post by klipt »

pm90 wrote: post #214
trurl wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure such visas exist, as my team has employees in four countries and we try to meet in person every quarter.

"Meeting" is different from "working". You can, of course, get a tourist Visa and meet and talk about stuff, and maybe even work out of a US office for a couple of weeks. But I think that working for a couple of months would not be permitted... Actually, I'm not sure of the law here. As long as you're not employed by the US division, are not paid by them and are just using the US as a place to work for their overseas…

I'm sure it's not allowed, otherwise American companies could hire unlimited immigrants through an overseas subsidiary.
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