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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#181

Post by makmanalp »

protonfish wrote: post #46
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

From where I am sitting, it looks like more than just cost, it's about control. If a smart mouth prima donna like myself lost his job, it would suck, yes, but if I were an H1-B I could be deported . If I were in that position I would think twice about telling my boss something he didn't want to hear. But it's worse than that. An Indian coworker once shared an unsubstantiated story about how an unscrupulous recruiter…

Without replying to the rest of your comment:

> an unscrupulous recruiter brought over a bunch of IT workers from India and forced them to work for essentially nothing. One call to immigration from their employer and they are sent back

One call to immigration and the company would be quite fucked with horrible fees and probably an audit / prosecution for fraud and human rights abuses. One does NOT mess with this. They'd never dare. What would happen is that they'd just not renew the person's visa, screwing them over that way.

> with minimal language skills and no knowledge of my rights

Let's be honest here, a TON of Indians (especially those in the higher economic strata that afforded a good education and picked up IT skills) have great english, and are perfectly capable of reading their rights, which if you've ever gone through the process, you'll know in minute detail.

That's not to say that abuse doesn't happen, but I think your view of how it happens is very skewed, and you're quite misinformed. It's much more banal and sinister than that. Then again, it's the exception rather than the norm among the more "modern" companies. The abusers, I think, would tend to be the large IT sweatshops and "consulting" firms.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#182

Post by arenaninja »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

I agree, and yet a lot of people here are claiming otherwise with their anecdotal evidence

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#183

Post by ta75757 »

There was an article submitted here a long time ago, it's title was:

"Fuck you, pay me."

I find it applicable here as well.

If programmers were paid like doctors, more talented people would start considering programming over med school or finance as a career. And then you would have more "talent". That's economics, that's capitalism. (Yes, laws hindering immigration are a trade barrier, and hiring immigrants is "more efficient" and therefore "better for consumers". But free trade advocates tend to only favor free trade for them. See, e.g. farming subsidies.)

So the question is, who deserves the money more, the developers or the CEOs and shareholders? Well, in our system today, the money goes to whoever has more power and fights harder for it. So, as a developer, I'm inclined to fight for my side, just as OP is fighting for his.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#184

Post by coddingtonbear »

illumen wrote: post #151
manticore_alpha wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't name names. I can tell you one was the kind of company you're probably thinking about, and the other was a publicly-traded (now) supply chain company.

If you can't provide any evidence, you're making it up.

Please do keep in mind that NDAs are a thing.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#185

Post by chuckcode »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I think H1-B's should entitle someone to work in the US at any company. Personally as a US citizen I think we're really lucky to get the worlds best and brightest to move here. Even if you feel different giving workers the ability to shop around for salaries would be a very effective way of ensuring that immigration is really about talent and not ensnaring workers at artificially low wages (which I've certainly seen personally).

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#186

Post by shas3 »

protonfish wrote: post #46
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #2

For "real" technology companies like AeroFS, that use a small fraction of the H-1B quota, it's about talent. For body shops like Infosys, WiPro, Tata, etc that use up the vast majority of the H-1B visas it's absolutely about cost.

From where I am sitting, it looks like more than just cost, it's about control. If a smart mouth prima donna like myself lost his job, it would suck, yes, but if I were an H1-B I could be deported . If I were in that position I would think twice about telling my boss something he didn't want to hear. But it's worse than that. An Indian coworker once shared an unsubstantiated story about how an unscrupulous recruiter…

I am surprised each time I see this kind of casual bigotry on HN. Seriously, "school in India called, Institute of Suspiciously Obscure Technologies"? I don't think there's any other way of reading your comment other than "most Indians lie on resumes and in interviews."

It's understandable seeing this kind of stuff on reddit from 13 year-olds. But I don't understand what vantage makes you make such sweeping generalizations about a supposedly monolithic chunk of 1 billion human beings.

Haven't you heard the joke about how pretty much everything that requires a caveat "not trying to be racist here" is actually racist?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#187

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

jseliger wrote: post #101
rayiner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture I've heard this said before but never seen any data on it, though similar rationale was used in the Immigration Act of 1924: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924 , which helped condemn millions to death in Europe. Bryan Caplan makes the case for open borders here: http://openborders.info/bryan-caplan/ . Separate…

> Act of 1924 ... which helped condemn millions to death in Europe

That is incredibly twisted reasoning.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#188

Post by wrexsoule »

sriram_sun wrote: post #144
wrexsoule wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The H1-B program keeps the worker captive Let's be serious a few minutes, no H1-B worker is held captive at all. I've been on H1-B for 4 years and still on it, and have changed employer twice with no issues. The only case you can make is that if a H1-B is applying for a Green Card then he can have to wait a while before moving, but it's nothing to do with H1-B itself.

The Valley is a lot more open about H1-B transfers than the rest of the country is. I made the mistake of working the mid-west for a number of years where job hopping was not as rampant as the Valley and generally looked down upon. Also, every time you jump to a new employer keep in mind that your Green Card clock gets reset and your H1-B's 6-7 yr. limit stays the same. Having spent a significant portion of my youth…

Yes in the case of Green Card I agree you can become a captive if you're still waiting for your I-140. That being said, the DoL is currently reviewing the rules and should allow portability of the PERM in the near future as directed by Obama's announcement last Thursday, so when this finally happens there should be no longer talk of captivity even for Green Cards since PERM really doesn't take that long (unles syou get an audit...)

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#189

Post by BrainInAJar »

stretchwithme wrote: post #118
hnnewguy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything , if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand m…

Definition of shortage on Google: a state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts. Doesn't mention anything about not paying the market price. Those not willing to pay the market price can't buy a loaf of bread. It is prices that incentivize people to provide what we need. And when the bubble pops, prices will tell people the opposite. Either way, its just a market condition th…

> It is unlikely a robot will ever be able to do the job of entrepreneur.

Sounds like a market opportunity. DoucheBot 6000 can hook right in to algorithmic trading platforms to acquire VC without human intervention at any step! It'll disrupt the startup game!

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#190

Post by zerr »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #116
DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

I hate to say this, but in your position I'd suggest you collude with your employer to fake a degree.

Or he can get his real degree in some Patrick Korseka private university, Some street, Building 56, 5th floor, room #34. Ask Paul :)
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