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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#101
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture

I've heard this said before but never seen any data on it, though similar rationale was used in the Immigration Act of 1924: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924 , which helped condemn millions to death in Europe.

Bryan Caplan makes the case for open borders here: http://openborders.info/bryan-caplan/ . Separately, his books, The Myth of the Rational Voter and Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, are both great, and full of brilliantly contrarian thinking.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#102
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely most of you money is going on rent, so the money left will be the same as other cities.

You can always adjust your consumption bundle. If I'm living in a high rent city, I'm more likely to find a friend to share an apartment with or settle for something not that great. This is a drop in utility (though I'd argue living with a friend is a positive for myself), but I also have a lot more money to use on other things, which increases my utility. Spending most of your money on rent when you're pulling somet…

Your average friend is likely to want a close to market price for that room. Relying on friends is not a way to plan an economy. A lot of people won't have friends willing to let them stay.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#103
post #3

> Just a few hours later, Vox published an article titled These tech interns are probably making more than you are where they shared a tweet showcasing candid salaries at various tech companies, some larger, some smaller: That is a kind of a bullshit argument though isn't it, that "hey look, the interns (supposedly half-able, incompetent newbies) are getting paid so high!! We have such wonderful salaries in tech!" It…

> When you're "making 90k" in the valley you have the quality of life worth 30k in a midwestern city. Not true at all, yet this is constantly repeated like it's fact. Look up indifference curves and consumption bundles. You're ignoring microeconomics. For anyone that doesn't assign excessively high utility towards housing size, 90k in the valley is a much better quality of life than 30k in a midwestern city. This is…

If you're comparing cities to cities (e.g. Chicago vs. SF, Minneapolis vs. Seattle) then I'd say that it's closer to 65k than 30k to get an equivalent lifestyle to $90k on the West Coast. There are (contrary to coastal stereotype) great places to live in the Midwest, and they are cheaper than SF, but they aren't super-cheap either. The 2500 SF houses for $300k aren't in downtown Chicago. They're in suburbs where most 25-year-olds would be pretty bored because walking or biking to work is very rare and you can't go out without a designated driver (i.e. cab service and public transportation aren't options).

If you're comparing suburbs (Silicon Valley) to suburbs, the discrepancy is much greater and I'd say that $90k/CA ~= $40k/Midwest. That's because Silicon Valley has so much less in the way of urban amenity, but still charges an urban premium that you wouldn't see 20 miles out of Minneapolis. When you adjust for commute, suburban California ("the Valley") looks even worse.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#104
Unfortunately, this post discusses the expenses and difficulty of hiring, but doesn't provide any information about the compensation offered, nor do I have any real sense of what the position requires. Are they offering 200k for an entry level crud developer? Are they offering 100k for someone with a PhD in Math, an extensive 10+ background in high scale software development at a large silicon valley company, and intricate knowledge of cutting edge data science algorithms?

I understand that this information is difficult to release for all kinds of reasons. But without it, it's essentially impossible to evaluate why this company is having trouble filling the position, or whether the added costs for dealing with the visa process are considerably less than the higher salary it might cost to hire someone already authorized to work in the US.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#105
post #33

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

Seems fair enough. However, this would also mean that startups would likely find it impossible to earn H1-B's in competitive fields, as a fair amount of the compensation is future-loaded. Or, to put it another way: who's going to win a bidding war for Employee X, Microsoft or {Startup Working to Become Microsoft}?

Startups already lose a lot of bidding wars to bigger companies for domestic employees. This wouldn't be any different. Big companies pay more money in salary & bonus, generally have better benefits, more stability, and these days many of the side perks that startups have.

Almost all of the money 'startups' are raising is destined for employee compensation. This would just be another form of it.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#106
The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power.

I am currently a remote worker for a US company. The company have expressed they would like for me to come over and work full-time and permanently with their company as an actual employee. The kicker is: I have no degree and I don't quite have the 12 years needed experience to qualify for the visa either. This puts me in a difficult position.

I have about 8 years experience in web development, my title is actually "front-end developer" and there is no degree in front-end development or even web development herein lies an issue with how eligibility for visas are determined, the H1-B included. You basically are expected to have a degree in something even if it doesn't relate to your job exactly. If I had a degree in arts or something, I would be able to get an E3 visa just like that because all they see is the paper and go: here you are.

In the instance of this particular company, it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" they are offering quite a decent relocation bonus, monthly expenditure for housing and other benefits, the issue is competition for them.

The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Apparently Facebook also are in that list, but you really only hear of Microsoft and Amazon mostly taking the talent.

The particular skill-set they are looking for is another thing. They needed someone with Java experience, AngularJS, React.js and the basics of web down-pat. There are other people out there with similar skills, but if you know Java especially, Amazon who are big users of the language, will scoop you up before the for sale sign has even been put up.

It is at the point where it works out cheaper for the company to offer a decent salary, relocation costs, monthly housing costs and pay for my flights from Australia than it is for them to match the salaries being offered by the other heavyweights in the area. That is how crazy things have become. Not to mention the salary being offered is twice that of what I would get from any employer here in Australia for my skill-set and experience.

I am sure that a few companies are taking advantage of working visas, but it isn't fair to lump all companies into the same bucket. Some companies legitimately need to hire outside country hires to compete.

I think there definitely needs to be reform. Companies who want to hire candidates like me face challenges because of strict and archaic requirements for obtaining a visa. Even visas that make it easier like the E3 still have the same eligibility criteria which for people like me who are self-taught puts us into a tricky spot.

Then you have Canada. They make it so incredibly easy to come over and work as an Australian. Provided you have enough funds and a clean criminal history you can get a working holiday visa for up-to 24 months. No degree required, no archaic process, an actual visa that lets you work and gives you rights. While this isn't permanent, it goes to show, how fundamentally different the US and other countries are when it comes to visas.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#107

I can't be the only person from the Midwest who noticed that list of internship rates. Fuck me, I'm getting paid half that per month. WTF.

Same here mate (I'm in England though). On the plus side I live figuratively in my mother's basement so my costs are practically nothing. And I'm not exactly hot talent material either, but I have been in the same job for 6 years (my initial salary was about 1/3rd of these, excluding the housing allowances).

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#108

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything , if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand m…

Right, so there's no shortage.

I get that there's plenty of demand for highly skilled engineers that want to work for $80k and a tiny handful of lottery tickets. It doesn't mean we need to further help the valley avoid the consequences of a lack of investment in domestic education, or their wild irresponsibility with respect to housing and transport issues in the bay.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#109
post #100

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I'd like to know about the "standard, normalized ways immigrants have come to the US" that you mentioned.

I won't say it's trivially easy, but with determination it can be done.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#110

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything , if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand m…

Any position paying more than minimum wage is a position with an economic shortage.

I'm for easy immigration, but let's not pretend that this isn't going to reduce tech worker wages in the area. (In the long run though, it could help, since you tend to get more specialization and scale when large numbers of a certain type of profession are congregated around a certain area).

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