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Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

blogs.scientificamerican.com

61–70 of 109 posts

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#61
post #2

Surely Kip Thorne himself has to realize that he's grasping at straws. A lot of the things he mentions are of the type "in this precise, extremely rare situation it is possible, if we ignore all the other side effects". For example, I'm sure his calculations will be correct regarding the planet orbiting a black hole close enough for relativistic effects. What it also means is that the planet would pass through the ex…

I think Thorne is approaching this from a different perspective than you are.

Thorne is aiming this at people who've never even heard of time dilation. He's aiming this at people who, when they hear about the time dilation on Miller's planet due to its presence in a gravitational field, will say that this is all just made up for the plot, having no idea that this has been known since Einstein's general theory was published nearly 100 years ago in 1915.

I also think that the writing of the movie consisted of the following process:

- Nolan proposes something completely outlandish.

- Thorne explains why it won't work.

- Nolan says it's "non-negotiable" for plot purposes.

- Thorne insists it's not possible.

- Nolan says to make it possible.

- Thorne either figures out a set of exotic circumstances in which it's possible (e.g., a time dilation factor of 1 hour = 7 years), or continues to insist that it's just too far fetched (astronauts traveling faster than light -- something that Nolan originally had told Thorne was non-negotiable but eventually agreed to scrap).

Overall, I think this quote from Thorne really sums up the goal behind the movie's science:

> To a great extent, my motivation here was to try to use the movie as a lure to get people who might otherwise not have much interest in science curious about it, by exposing them to strange, exotic phenomena like wormholes. The film is the bait, and the book is the hook I want to use to draw them in even further, to get them to dig in and learn something new. If they are young, maybe they will consider careers in science rather than in finance or law. If they are older, I still think it’s tremendously important that larger fractions of our citizenry possess enough understanding of science to appreciate its powers and its limitations.

It reminds me of something Feynman said before he delivered his famous lectures at Caltech. The students there at the time were getting bored with the curriculum, and Feynman had observed that it's because none of the new and exciting ideas of modern physics were being presented to them. So he designed his lectures to cover relativity and quantum mechanics, even if it meant leaving out a lot of details to fit it into an undergraduate level. I feel like Thorne and Nolan wanted to present a few of the more exciting ideas of modern physics to viewers who otherwise might think they're made up, and when they insist the science is realistic, that's the perspective they're coming from.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#62

Accuracy aside, from a scientific point of view Interstellar was one of the most interesting movies in a long time, and it really made me think about Physics a lot again. It's really cool to see how much you can actually learn about the universe of Interstellar by making use of some Physics knowledge and the information given to you in the movie. An example: The first planet they visit orbits Gargantua (the supermass…

The wormhole was perfect, except the travel bit bugged me. They use the 2d analog with paper. The second you pass through the hole in one location you emerge from the hole in the other location. In the third dimension, as they touch the sphere near Saturn they would be leaving the surface of the sphere on the other side. From their point of view they should be about to hit the 'ball' then all of a suddenly then are travelling away from the surface of another ball. Instead they had this tunnel thingy.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#63
post #12
post #2

Surely Kip Thorne himself has to realize that he's grasping at straws. A lot of the things he mentions are of the type "in this precise, extremely rare situation it is possible, if we ignore all the other side effects". For example, I'm sure his calculations will be correct regarding the planet orbiting a black hole close enough for relativistic effects. What it also means is that the planet would pass through the ex…

I liked Intersteller a lot as well, but its plot was horribly contrived in places and the science isn't as good as it was purported to be - even moreso if you include the behaviour of the scientists involved :). The science was certainly better than most other serious sci-fi films though. The real problem with the film is the needlessly long hour of character establishment. (SPOILER) Rather interestingly, I've seen v…

Very interesting observations about the christ story, I didn't pick up on any of them.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#64
post #6
post #2

Surely Kip Thorne himself has to realize that he's grasping at straws. A lot of the things he mentions are of the type "in this precise, extremely rare situation it is possible, if we ignore all the other side effects". For example, I'm sure his calculations will be correct regarding the planet orbiting a black hole close enough for relativistic effects. What it also means is that the planet would pass through the ex…

I believe it is possible to set the rules at the real physics level, take 2001: A Space Odyssey as an example. But not if you are forced by Hollywood producers to put all the little pieces that follow inner feelings of the masses. This is what I believe happened to Matrix movies, progressively keeping worse and worse grip on their own rules.

To be fair, though, 2001: A Space Odyssey didn't explore nearly as many exotic phenomena as Interstellar did. It was a lot easier for that movie to remain mostly accurate.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#65

Accuracy aside, from a scientific point of view Interstellar was one of the most interesting movies in a long time, and it really made me think about Physics a lot again. It's really cool to see how much you can actually learn about the universe of Interstellar by making use of some Physics knowledge and the information given to you in the movie. An example: The first planet they visit orbits Gargantua (the supermass…

Gargantua is a spinning "Kerr" blackhole in the movie. The nearly maximally spinning blackhole is central to the movie plot as it is the reason Miller's planet can be in the orbit it is claimed to be, tidally locked to the spin direction of the blackhole. And the "accretion disc" is not really accreting into the blackhole but is just in orbit around the blackhole, cooling off. The accretion discs and the polar ejections we know from astronomy are energetic medusas that'll fry anything that so much as glances in its direction.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#66
post #12
post #2

Surely Kip Thorne himself has to realize that he's grasping at straws. A lot of the things he mentions are of the type "in this precise, extremely rare situation it is possible, if we ignore all the other side effects". For example, I'm sure his calculations will be correct regarding the planet orbiting a black hole close enough for relativistic effects. What it also means is that the planet would pass through the ex…

I liked Intersteller a lot as well, but its plot was horribly contrived in places and the science isn't as good as it was purported to be - even moreso if you include the behaviour of the scientists involved :). The science was certainly better than most other serious sci-fi films though. The real problem with the film is the needlessly long hour of character establishment. (SPOILER) Rather interestingly, I've seen v…

Not to mention the use of organ music — easily reminiscent of Christian hymns — in Hans Zimmer's soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo5m5GXF9Ec.

The parallels between "quantum data" and the Logos of Gnostic Christianity are also apparent.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why Kip Thorne is so desperate to declare that the movie doesn't violate known physics, when it clearly does, just not in the areas he's most concerned with. Planetary dynamics, propulsion systems... but as long as there aren't Na'vi or dragons on the planets, I suppose they consider it realistic enough. On second thought, Na'vi or dragons might be more realistic than some of…

>I don't understand why Kip Thorne is so desperate to declare that the movie doesn't violate known physics I do. At least I think I do. Kip Thorne has published a book named "The Science of Interstellar". I am sure that book is quite scientific and reasonable. However, the most hyped up attribute of art-science relationship in Interstellar is its "real" physics. If Kip Thorne declares that movie does violate known ph…

[deleted]

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#68
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why Kip Thorne is so desperate to declare that the movie doesn't violate known physics, when it clearly does, just not in the areas he's most concerned with. Planetary dynamics, propulsion systems... but as long as there aren't Na'vi or dragons on the planets, I suppose they consider it realistic enough. On second thought, Na'vi or dragons might be more realistic than some of…

>I don't understand why Kip Thorne is so desperate to declare that the movie doesn't violate known physics I do. At least I think I do. Kip Thorne has published a book named "The Science of Interstellar". I am sure that book is quite scientific and reasonable. However, the most hyped up attribute of art-science relationship in Interstellar is its "real" physics. If Kip Thorne declares that movie does violate known ph…

"In the end, magic tesseract creatures and love of the protagonists saves the day, not scientific method."

It's worse than this! Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I got a strong anti-scientific, anti-rational vibe from the movie.

Consider this: the movie's two top scientists are scheming liars. The professor who ran the whole show lied to everybody because he's smarter than all the dummies on his team. And the guy from the second planet is the most brilliant scientist among the astronauts, and turns out to be an egocentric asshole who develops a sinister plan that endangers the whole mission for his personal gain. Lesson learned: never trust a scientist, they're up to no good!

Second: Rational decision making is for the birds. Our hero decides on an order in which to visit the planets based on the available evidence. Meanwhile, the girl who's allegedly a scientist but who uses "love" as her compass had intuitively favored the "right" planet all along. In fact, things don't start going right until people start doing crazy things based on fuzzy hunches. Lesson learned: Love is a better basis for decisions than evidence and reason.

I get the impression this attitude is "trending" in the US, and it worries me. There's a worrisome anti-science sentiment afoot, apparent in denial of evolution and global warming, opposition to vaccination, a hysteric fear of various foods and distrust of "conventional" medicine.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? What about sending "quantum data" back from the black hole? The point is that no information can leave. Also, from what I learned in high school physics, the body of a human would completely fall apart if it's falling to the black hole, because of the difference in gravity between proximal and distal parts. These are just the 2 things I noticed and I'm far from a physicist. Basically, it got a couple of th…

That's an interesting point! The fact that our current theories suggest that no information can ever leave a black hole entails a paradox which is known as the "Black hole information paradox" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox ). In the movie they resolve this by resorting to gravitational waves, which can "permeate" through space and time by a mechanism not explained in the film. In real…

Maybe black holes are nature's true-random-number-generator (via hawking radiation). Energy comes in, energy eventually comes out, but there's no relation as far as wavelength, direction etc.

No idea, I'm an EE not an astronomer, just guessing out of my back end.

Re: Kip Thorne: The science of Interstellar

#70
post #2

Surely Kip Thorne himself has to realize that he's grasping at straws. A lot of the things he mentions are of the type "in this precise, extremely rare situation it is possible, if we ignore all the other side effects". For example, I'm sure his calculations will be correct regarding the planet orbiting a black hole close enough for relativistic effects. What it also means is that the planet would pass through the ex…

I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why Kip Thorne is so desperate to declare that the movie doesn't violate known physics, when it clearly does, just not in the areas he's most concerned with. Planetary dynamics, propulsion systems... but as long as there aren't Na'vi or dragons on the planets, I suppose they consider it realistic enough. On second thought, Na'vi or dragons might be more realistic than some of…

The messages from the first planet seemed like one area where the movie got the physics wrong. The characters said that they were getting just the "ok" message over and over again. But because of the time dilation, the frequency of the "ok" message would have dramatically decreased. I wonder if they could have received it at all.
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