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Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

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Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#121

Post by jasonjei »

lavamantis wrote: post #116
shittyanalogy wrote: post #86

I'm going to attempt to rationalize why cyclists don't obey traffic laws in cities. The short answer is that bicycle riding in cities sucks. It's loud, slippery, uneven, blocked, takes a lot of physical effort, is full of unpredictable giant metal things that can kill you, teeming with large moving meat pillars that will jump in front of you at any moment, you're completely exposed to the weather and can't safely loo…

Thanks for articulating this, although you may have just started a religious war. My only addition is why cyclists don't completely stop at stop signs. It's a LOT of work to get up to speed from a dead stop, so it seems a bit pointless to do it when you can clearly see that no one is in the intersection. Also, as you are trying to accelerate from a dead stop, it takes a while to get through the intersection. If there…

I think the biggest concern about cyclists is the I-don't-give-a-damn attitude (entitlement). I understand the reasons to run a red-light when safely clear to do, but when the action affects other users of the road, such as on a busy road, that's when it's a no-no (for example, I almost got sidelined by a cyclist running the bike downhill on a sidewalk as I was pulling out of the garage on my motorcycle). Take my opinion with a grain of salt as a fixed gear cyclist and motorcyclist. (And I do try to observe the law on my pedal bike.)

Cyclist red light running does affect pedestrians. Consider this guy who was killed in NYC. [1]

We all have to share the road. For cyclists, motorists, motorcyclists, and pedestrians in no order.

[1] http://nypost.com/2014/09/22/new-yorks-cycles-of-death-our-a...

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#122

Post by jasonjei »

PJDK wrote: post #80
jasonjei wrote: post #37

As a motorcyclist, I think cyclists should be held to the same rules of the law as other vehicles to make driving predictable and safe. As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light? Will they weave in and out of traffic unsafely (this is an acceptable practice, when done with ample buffer given their size and speed)? I think cycling is great (I'…

As a cyclist (and a pretty law abiding one at that) I absolutely want you to treat me as a wildcard, one that you have to pay extra attention to since I'm in a pretty vulnerable position on the road. It's fine to put cars in a "probably won't do anything unpredictable" box, if the worst comes to the worst there'll be some paperwork to fill in (might not be true for you on a motorbike of course). A cyclist the worst t…

How does being a wildcard improve your chance of safety? There's a good chance some won't recognize it as such--elderly drivers have a slower response time.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#123

Post by Alupis »

michael_h wrote: post #117
Alupis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a decent thing to do in high-traffic/large cities. But in more rural areas, where speed limits are 45-65MPH, getting hit is deadly no matter which direction you are riding. It's safer to see oncomming traffic in this situation so you can get out of the way.

If you are removing yourself from the road for _every single_ car, regardless of the direction of travel, then maybe it doesn't matter. If you are going to stay on the road with other vehicles: You _never_ ride against traffic. Drivers are less likely to see you if you are biking where they normally don't anticipate any traffic. Even in a rural environment, biking with the flow of traffic gives the driver better visu…

that doesn't make sense. you are on their right-hand side no matter which side of the street your ride on. the only difference is you see them or you don't (depends which way you are facing).

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#124

Post by sedachv »

jasonjei wrote: post #65
shittyanalogy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ride as well, but do you honestly think that motorcycles aren't wild cards? How many motorcyclists die or get seriously injured yealry as a result of their own recklessness as opposed to bikes. Do you honestly thing that bicyclists don't view every single motor vehicle as a wild card? The damage tables are enormously shifted.

I didn't say motorcyclists aren't a wildcard. To be honest, I see motorcyclists often being pulled over for being unpredictable and think it's a good thing. However, motorcyclists do tend to stop at red lights--which can't be said for 50 of the 100 times I've observed cyclists. And in places like California, lane splitting for cyclists and motorcyclists done safely does increase safety, reducing the possibility that…

The CHP recommendations were: "It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 30 mph or faster" and "Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic" until "Land a State Job and Become an Instant Millionaire" scumbag Ken Mandler made a complaint to the California Office of Administrative Law: http://jalopnik.com/one-man-just-made-lane-splitting-infinit...

That's 40mph top speed recommendation for lane splitting. In practice I find I sometimes need to lane split at 50mph when traffic is tightly packed - drivers do not see motorcycles in their blind spots and side-view mirrors when you are riding alongside. I have had cars try to merge into me on multiple occasions when I'm taking the full lane and traveling at the speed of traffic.

When lane splitting, drivers either see me coming up on them in their side-view mirror (the angle of the side-view mirror works to your and the driver's advantage when you are between lanes), or I can see them prepare to make a lane change by signalling, turning their front wheels when stopped, or just pulling out without looking (which will usually happen ahead of you and give you time to brake - drivers do a much better job of not merging into cars in their blind spots, and that's what makes it safe to travel between two cars).

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#125

Post by btown »

shittyanalogy wrote: post #86

I'm going to attempt to rationalize why cyclists don't obey traffic laws in cities. The short answer is that bicycle riding in cities sucks. It's loud, slippery, uneven, blocked, takes a lot of physical effort, is full of unpredictable giant metal things that can kill you, teeming with large moving meat pillars that will jump in front of you at any moment, you're completely exposed to the weather and can't safely loo…

As a pedestrian, things like cyclists running red lights "when [they] think it's safe" cause a huge amount of consternation for me. Traffic rules are in place so that other people on the road - pedestrians included - can have reasonable expectations about the behavior of other actors. If I need to wait when I have a "walk" symbol because I don't know whether a cyclist is going to feel entitled to run the light or not, then a cyclist has no right to call me a "large moving meat pillar" because it's the cyclist's own disobedience of the law that is causing the disturbance in the first place. Cyclists, I know you hate dead stops, but don't be assholes to pedestrians who aren't being assholes to you.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#126

Post by zevyoura »

dagurp wrote: post #104
shittyanalogy wrote: post #86

I'm going to attempt to rationalize why cyclists don't obey traffic laws in cities. The short answer is that bicycle riding in cities sucks. It's loud, slippery, uneven, blocked, takes a lot of physical effort, is full of unpredictable giant metal things that can kill you, teeming with large moving meat pillars that will jump in front of you at any moment, you're completely exposed to the weather and can't safely loo…

> The short answer is that bicycle riding in cities sucks. Depends on the city

All American cities, and nearly all international cities.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#127

Post by jff »

xico wrote: post #119
coldpie wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Never wave pedestrians through. It's faster for everyone for you to zip through than for me to wait for you to slow to a complete stop (like hell I'm walking in front of a moving car). I've had people stop at a green light(!) while I'm waiting on the side of the two-lane road for the crosswalk signal to change. I just stood there and stared until the light changed and they missed their green. I'm not going to c…

In a lot of countries and at least in California, according to the DMV handbook, pedestrians have the right of way, whether in marked or unmarked crosswalks. Cars are required to let them pass first, who arrived first is irrelevant there. Waving at them is only a polite redundant sign.

Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks UNLESS there is a signal; if there is a signal, the pedestrian only has right of way when the signal allows them to cross.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#128

Post by michael_h »

Alupis wrote: post #123
michael_h wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are removing yourself from the road for _every single_ car, regardless of the direction of travel, then maybe it doesn't matter. If you are going to stay on the road with other vehicles: You _never_ ride against traffic. Drivers are less likely to see you if you are biking where they normally don't anticipate any traffic. Even in a rural environment, biking with the flow of traffic gives the driver better visu…

that doesn't make sense. you are on their right-hand side no matter which side of the street your ride on. the only difference is you see them or you don't (depends which way you are facing).

...

If you ride against traffic, then you still "don't see" the vehicles that are going in the same direction as you, and you are now on their left. Sure, they're on the opposite side of the road, but you don't know if they are paying attention or what. Thus: no more safety gained by riding on the opposite side of the road, where you aren't supposed to be.

The most dangerous area is, obviously, an intersection, where being on the wrong side of the road is demonstrably less safe[1]. After that, it's the blind spot over the crest of a hill. If you are going against the flow of traffic, you will be moving your slowest when you are in that blind spot. Moving with the flow of traffic -> moving quickly through that blind spot.

Knowing when a vehicle is coming up behind you, with plenty of time to react if necessary, is solved with a $12 helmet mirror.

[1] http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#129

Post by gburt »

jasonjei wrote: post #121
lavamantis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for articulating this, although you may have just started a religious war. My only addition is why cyclists don't completely stop at stop signs. It's a LOT of work to get up to speed from a dead stop, so it seems a bit pointless to do it when you can clearly see that no one is in the intersection. Also, as you are trying to accelerate from a dead stop, it takes a while to get through the intersection. If there…

I think the biggest concern about cyclists is the I-don't-give-a-damn attitude (entitlement). I understand the reasons to run a red-light when safely clear to do, but when the action affects other users of the road, such as on a busy road, that's when it's a no-no (for example, I almost got sidelined by a cyclist running the bike downhill on a sidewalk as I was pulling out of the garage on my motorcycle). Take my opi…

Please demonstrate that there is any such "entitlement" attitude among cyclists that does not exist among drivers. It is dangerous for cyclists and other road users for cyclists to "complete stop" at stop signs. It's not entitlement, it's an evaluation of risk.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#130

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

lutorm wrote: post #98
rcthompson wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think you're talking about a situation where two cars are pulling up to an empty intersection simultaneously. That's a low-traffic situation. The problem comes when you're at a 4-way stop and people are coming from every direction. Anyone who wants to go through the intersection needs the cars from at least two other directions to let them through. So you, as one person, waving them through is pointless because…

At 4-way stops in heavy traffic, it's difficult at best to tell the order in which people should go. If there's more than one lane in each direction, it becomes practically impossible. Imho, 4-way stops are terrible no matter how you slice it: in heavy traffic they're really inefficient not to mention difficult to navigate, and should be replaced with a traffic light. In light traffic they're also inefficient, and sh…

Actually I'm impressed at how people negotiate when the signs break down. A few days ago, the traffic signals at a major intersection (a heavily trafficked US route and a Minnesota route) on my way to work went completely dark, both roads normally having 55mph speed limits. The intersection had two lanes of traffic on each road plus left turn lanes. Somehow traffic kept flowing. Traffic slowed way down and there were a few hairy moments, but by and large people treated the lights out situation as a stop sign and responded appropriately.
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