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Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

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Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#111

Post by coldpie »

jghn wrote: post #108
gareim wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they mean when it's clear who arrived first. As a pedestrian, I hate cars waving me through when I clearly get there ~2 seconds after they do.

In general I hate when cars try to wave me by (as a pedestrian) w/ little regard to the total situation. I realize they're being nice but often all they're doing is making a bigger mess for the bigger picture. I always try to wave them along instead, but sometimes they're insistent, and I can almost hear them grumbling "why won't this dummy go?" ... sorry, it's because you're a) holding up traffic behind you and b) I…

Yeah. Never wave pedestrians through. It's faster for everyone for you to zip through than for me to wait for you to slow to a complete stop (like hell I'm walking in front of a moving car). I've had people stop at a green light(!) while I'm waiting on the side of the two-lane road for the crosswalk signal to change. I just stood there and stared until the light changed and they missed their green. I'm not going to cross into traffic because you don't respect the rules.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#112

Post by lavamantis »

jghn wrote: post #108
gareim wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they mean when it's clear who arrived first. As a pedestrian, I hate cars waving me through when I clearly get there ~2 seconds after they do.

In general I hate when cars try to wave me by (as a pedestrian) w/ little regard to the total situation. I realize they're being nice but often all they're doing is making a bigger mess for the bigger picture. I always try to wave them along instead, but sometimes they're insistent, and I can almost hear them grumbling "why won't this dummy go?" ... sorry, it's because you're a) holding up traffic behind you and b) I…

Agree 100%. Pretty much the only time I get honked at as a cyclist is when one of the drivers at an intersection wants me to go through but the other drivers there don't. Chaos and honking ensues, and I'm the only one who's life is actually in danger. So, drivers: just obey the rules as best you can and we'll take care of ourselves. (but please stop blowing through stop signs without looking - even if you don't hit me you may cause a heart attack)

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#113

Post by nickkthequick »

morcheeba wrote: post #110
nickkthequick wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that Asian countries have fewer accidents because people run red lights? Do you have a source on any of this?

I believe eric is referring to this kind of mentality: http://knowledge.allianz.com/mobility/transportation_safety/...

I'm familiar with the idea, but if people run a red light 100% of the time, that becomes the new norm and therefore what is safe and expected. Don't forget that we're driving around in metal boxes powered by explosions, that didn't always seem safe (and certainly wouldn't to people if we suddenly introduced them to a society hundreds of years ago) but now it does seem safe.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#114

Post by lavamantis »

ceejayoz wrote: post #87
jff wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's correct--WHEN WALKING. Cyclists are supposed to behave as vehicles, not as pedestrians, so they need to move with traffic.

I'm just saying part of the problem is that cyclists behave as a squishy bag of meat in an accident . Given the prevalence of inattentive motorists, I'm not shocked some folks prefer to risk a ticket.

Also keep in mind that when people come up to a road they expect traffic to be coming from a given direction. They may not expect traffic to be going the wrong way, so they aren't looking for it. For pedestrians, not necessarily a big issue, but for cyclists it kind of is. By going the wrong direction, when you suddenly appear out of nowhere, at speed, you will cause a lot of unnecessary confusion, surprise, and rapid decision making. It's not worth it. Luckily, I see very little of this (Santa Monica).

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#115

Post by lberlin »

jghn wrote: post #109
PJDK wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist (and a pretty law abiding one at that) I absolutely want you to treat me as a wildcard, one that you have to pay extra attention to since I'm in a pretty vulnerable position on the road. It's fine to put cars in a "probably won't do anything unpredictable" box, if the worst comes to the worst there'll be some paperwork to fill in (might not be true for you on a motorbike of course). A cyclist the worst t…

You're ignoring pedestrians in this equation, who are more vulnerable than you.

The main difference I see between bikes/pedestrians and cars/motorcycles is that there is minimal cost/effort to reverse and change your mind. So, on a bike or on foot, you can jaywalk or run a red light by slowly peeking out and making sure it's safe. If someone with the right of way is coming, you can simple stop and let them by. You absolutely can't do that with a car or motorcycle.

My general rule, as both biker and pedestrian, is to not get in the way of others who have the right of way. They shouldn't have to change course or worry about you. Most pedestrians (and plenty bikers too) are absolutely clueluess though. They don't look for bike lanes, they walk in the bikelanes, they jaywalk without looking if a bike (or car) is coming, they open car doors without looking, etc. I think this frustrates a lot of bikers, so they end up not caring and trying to ride through a crosswalk full of pedestrians and doing other asshole things, but I don't think that's the norm.

As a reasonable adult, I know I shouldn't jaywalk or run a red light because they are rules, but I have confidence via my senses that I can do that with absolute safety and respect for myself and others.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#116

Post by lavamantis »

shittyanalogy wrote: post #86

I'm going to attempt to rationalize why cyclists don't obey traffic laws in cities. The short answer is that bicycle riding in cities sucks. It's loud, slippery, uneven, blocked, takes a lot of physical effort, is full of unpredictable giant metal things that can kill you, teeming with large moving meat pillars that will jump in front of you at any moment, you're completely exposed to the weather and can't safely loo…

Thanks for articulating this, although you may have just started a religious war.

My only addition is why cyclists don't completely stop at stop signs. It's a LOT of work to get up to speed from a dead stop, so it seems a bit pointless to do it when you can clearly see that no one is in the intersection. Also, as you are trying to accelerate from a dead stop, it takes a while to get through the intersection. If there does happen to be a motorist there, they have to sit and wait while you (slowly) go by. It isn't necessarily legal, but cyclists not completely stopping probably helps everyone.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#117

Post by michael_h »

Alupis wrote: post #94
jff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say the speed limit is 30, and you can pedal along at 15 mph. If you ride with traffic and get hit, your relative speed at collision will be 15 mph and the collision will push you away from the car. If you ride against traffic and get hit, you're dealing with a head-on collision at 45 mph relative speed. That's why I always ride with traffic.

Probably a decent thing to do in high-traffic/large cities. But in more rural areas, where speed limits are 45-65MPH, getting hit is deadly no matter which direction you are riding. It's safer to see oncomming traffic in this situation so you can get out of the way.

If you are removing yourself from the road for _every single_ car, regardless of the direction of travel, then maybe it doesn't matter.

If you are going to stay on the road with other vehicles: You _never_ ride against traffic. Drivers are less likely to see you if you are biking where they normally don't anticipate any traffic. Even in a rural environment, biking with the flow of traffic gives the driver better visual cues that something else is on the road (you) and they have more time to plan their approach. It also gives them more time to find something appropriate to throw at you.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#118

Post by jghn »

lberlin wrote: post #115
jghn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring pedestrians in this equation, who are more vulnerable than you.

The main difference I see between bikes/pedestrians and cars/motorcycles is that there is minimal cost/effort to reverse and change your mind. So, on a bike or on foot, you can jaywalk or run a red light by slowly peeking out and making sure it's safe. If someone with the right of way is coming, you can simple stop and let them by. You absolutely can't do that with a car or motorcycle. My general rule, as both biker…

"is to not get in the way of others who have the right of way"

IMO that should be the rule for everyone :) The point I was trying to make was that often in these sorts of debates I see a lot of finger pointing between drivers & cyclists, with the cyclists saying, "Yeah, but we're more vulnerable - you all need to be more careful and allow us to do XYZ". But then they ignore that there's a third party who is even more vulnerable and often the behavior the cyclists propose increases danger to that third party.

"that I can do that with absolute safety and respect for myself and others."

As I said elsewhere in this thread, I'm AOK with people doing whatever they like in terms of traffic rules as long as it has zero impact on other people. Running red lights, jaywalking, etc - if no one is around, who cares? I jaywalk multiple times a day around the corner from my house - I live just off a busy main drag with very few crosswalks, so I just wait until there's a massive gap in the traffic on both sides and run across. OTOH I see people crossing that street all the time by just walking out and holding their hands up to signal to drivers that they should stop ... sorry, but no.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#119

Post by xico »

coldpie wrote: post #111
jghn wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I hate when cars try to wave me by (as a pedestrian) w/ little regard to the total situation. I realize they're being nice but often all they're doing is making a bigger mess for the bigger picture. I always try to wave them along instead, but sometimes they're insistent, and I can almost hear them grumbling "why won't this dummy go?" ... sorry, it's because you're a) holding up traffic behind you and b) I…

Yeah. Never wave pedestrians through. It's faster for everyone for you to zip through than for me to wait for you to slow to a complete stop (like hell I'm walking in front of a moving car). I've had people stop at a green light(!) while I'm waiting on the side of the two-lane road for the crosswalk signal to change. I just stood there and stared until the light changed and they missed their green. I'm not going to c…

In a lot of countries and at least in California, according to the DMV handbook, pedestrians have the right of way, whether in marked or unmarked crosswalks. Cars are required to let them pass first, who arrived first is irrelevant there. Waving at them is only a polite redundant sign.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#120

Post by ultrasaurus »

apaprocki wrote: post #78
jff wrote: post #44

I wish all police everywhere started ticketing for more traffic violations. When everyone on the road--cyclist, motorist, and pedestrian--follows the rules precisely, traffic is predictable and safe. When morons wave you through at a 4-way stop, or turn without signaling (yay California), or blow red lights on their bicycle, you have to go into extra-defensive mode because the road is no longer predictable.

In NYC I couldn't want this more. For example, traffic on the Queensboro bridge gets backed up regularly entering Manhattan in the morning. If you go down to the streets the bridge exits out onto, cars/trucks are routinely parked on the sides of the road during prohibited rush hour windows, essentially restricting traffic down to 1 lane instead of the intended 2 or 3. All it takes is 1 traffic cop to be assigned the…

I work beside one of the on ramps to the Bay Bridge in SF, recently they've started stationing someone there about once a week. He seems very busy but I've been surprised at how little it has improved traffic yet.

Similarly though, I wonder what would happen after a weeklong publicized clamp down on blocking the box.

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