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Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

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Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#111

Post by res0nat0r »

prawn wrote: post #103
jboy wrote: post #14

OK, so it's obviously a little transparent of Thiel to say that Uber [a competitor to Lyft, a company in which he has invested] is "on the cusp" of going too far, but Airbnb [another company in which he has invested] has "a different feel" and is OK. But it's also a little ironic that the champion of "Competition is for losers", who says that monopolies can be a good thing for society [0], is against Uber trying thei…

Airbnb does have a different feel. As a user of the service, there are ways they could make it less frustrating (especially in big cities in peak times), but I never get the impression that they do anything but support their property owners and try to make them better at what they do. When I've had problems, they've solved them and given credit for replacement services. I haven't heard of Airbnb doing anything underh…

Except of course the whole let their users list properties they know are against the law thing. Which if they really wanted to ensure no listings that violated local ordinance were posted on the site they would go out of business.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#112

Post by gaius »

techdragon wrote: post #36
ghshephard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think close to 100% of successful entrepreneurs would agree with the statement "You can, and must break some rule, push the envelope, and engage in questionable behavior when building a company - the challenge is in always remembering where the line is, and never crossing it." Uber clearly crossed the line when their executives voiced out load their frustration with the media and then continued talking and imagined…

The difference is in what is being broken. A rule can be some conventional wisdom that is wrong, where the rule breaker is innovating through the barrier of complacency or it can be an ethical or moral consensus, a social rule, they break that may or may not be right. And those are much more troublesome. The absolute vs relative ethics debate alone makes it a nightmare to begin with.

Let's not mince words - Uber is not a tech company, what is their unique and newly developed technology? They are exploiting a loophole and operating unlicensed minicabs, profiting from the arbitrage of lower costs of not having to comply with regulation. Why is anyone surprised that they have a generally fuzzy idea about "rules"? It is on the regulators to shut them down.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#113

Post by rtpg »

res0nat0r wrote: post #106
VieElm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that actually happened. The exec and his CEO have even admitted to and apologized for it. Not one of them has denied any of the terrible quotes attributed to the Uber executive.

Sure they stated they could also hire people to dig up dirt on the reporters private lives who are trying to write gossip articles about Uber exec's private goings on, I don't really see any issue with that.

The amount of quotes in that article meant that this was not a one-line joke, but a full-blown description of some fantasy. Like somebody going on and on about the ways they would kill their ex-wife or something.

It's one thing to feel antagonised by someone, it's another to build out some revenge fantasy in detail.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#114

Post by res0nat0r »

rtpg wrote: post #113
res0nat0r wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they stated they could also hire people to dig up dirt on the reporters private lives who are trying to write gossip articles about Uber exec's private goings on, I don't really see any issue with that.

The amount of quotes in that article meant that this was not a one-line joke, but a full-blown description of some fantasy. Like somebody going on and on about the ways they would kill their ex-wife or something. It's one thing to feel antagonised by someone, it's another to build out some revenge fantasy in detail.

Giving a gossip columnist a taste of their own medicine is really that bad?

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#115

Post by etherael »

jacalata wrote: post #110
etherael wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a deliberate attempt to force people into consistency. If you object to sex being used for marketing of unrelated products that should always be true. Whether that's uber with avions, car or game companies with booth babes, or the "just squeezed" juice ads with continuously flexing male glutes or voodoo stocking etc etc etc.

Well, I do object to booth babes and the Uber promotion, I'm not familar with the others you mention. So no need to force anything. Many people have previously objected to boothbabes with the exact same arguments, and I don't see anyone saying one is OK but not the other, so I don't know why you are acting like there is some hidden inconsistency to be exposed.

You don't find it the slightest bit interesting that you're intimately familiar with the foremost examples of female objectification that spring to mind, but male examples of the same are so beneath your awareness that you don't even notice them generally speaking?

That's the way it is for most of society.

Frankly I don't particularly care, I don't really understand why people get incensed over these things. There is a market for them and where there is a demand that demand will be met. Complaining about it bitterly won't change that fact. We may as well attempt to wish away our sex drives. I bring up the inconsistency between the two not because I think that the war on female objectification should be expanded to the male counterpart thereof, but just to expose the difference in the views on the two subjects by society at large.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#116

Post by Steko »

techdragon wrote: post #36
ghshephard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think close to 100% of successful entrepreneurs would agree with the statement "You can, and must break some rule, push the envelope, and engage in questionable behavior when building a company - the challenge is in always remembering where the line is, and never crossing it." Uber clearly crossed the line when their executives voiced out load their frustration with the media and then continued talking and imagined…

The difference is in what is being broken. A rule can be some conventional wisdom that is wrong, where the rule breaker is innovating through the barrier of complacency or it can be an ethical or moral consensus, a social rule, they break that may or may not be right. And those are much more troublesome. The absolute vs relative ethics debate alone makes it a nightmare to begin with.

This is exactly it.

When Uber is breaking the rules that protect a tiny medallion-holding, rent seeking cartel, that's a positive for society.

When Uber is just end-running around sensible public licensing of taxis in cities without medallion cartels that's not really doing anything for society.

When Uber sabotages Lyft, promotes misogyny and threatens vile character assassination of journalists for negative coverage that's just Uber being repulsive and is a negative for society.

I hope more areas go down the road Seoul is supposedly going with their aim for a universal taxi app.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#117

Post by jacalata »

etherael wrote: post #115
jacalata wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I do object to booth babes and the Uber promotion, I'm not familar with the others you mention. So no need to force anything. Many people have previously objected to boothbabes with the exact same arguments, and I don't see anyone saying one is OK but not the other, so I don't know why you are acting like there is some hidden inconsistency to be exposed.

You don't find it the slightest bit interesting that you're intimately familiar with the foremost examples of female objectification that spring to mind, but male examples of the same are so beneath your awareness that you don't even notice them generally speaking? That's the way it is for most of society. Frankly I don't particularly care, I don't really understand why people get incensed over these things. There is…

No, I don't think its odd that I am familiar with examples in the tech industry but not those outside of it. I see boothbabes at conferences, I don't see ads for juice anywhere. I am not convinced that society is more OK with objectifying men than women and I don't think my exposure to advertising is evidence for your point.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#118

Post by etherael »

jacalata wrote: post #117
etherael wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't find it the slightest bit interesting that you're intimately familiar with the foremost examples of female objectification that spring to mind, but male examples of the same are so beneath your awareness that you don't even notice them generally speaking? That's the way it is for most of society. Frankly I don't particularly care, I don't really understand why people get incensed over these things. There is…

No, I don't think its odd that I am familiar with examples in the tech industry but not those outside of it. I see boothbabes at conferences, I don't see ads for juice anywhere. I am not convinced that society is more OK with objectifying men than women and I don't think my exposure to advertising is evidence for your point.

You see more female objectification in the tech industry because it's a male dominated industry. That's just demographics. If you think there is just as much outrage over the sexual objectification of men as there is over the same for women in society at large though I really don't know what to tell you.

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#119

Post by jacalata »

etherael wrote: post #118
jacalata wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think its odd that I am familiar with examples in the tech industry but not those outside of it. I see boothbabes at conferences, I don't see ads for juice anywhere. I am not convinced that society is more OK with objectifying men than women and I don't think my exposure to advertising is evidence for your point.

You see more female objectification in the tech industry because it's a male dominated industry. That's just demographics. If you think there is just as much outrage over the sexual objectification of men as there is over the same for women in society at large though I really don't know what to tell you.

Do you have an example of a female dominated industry that hires half dressed men as decoration for their conferences? I don't think this happens, although I'd be fascinated to be proven wrong. I don't think there is as much outrage over the sexual objectification of men because I don't think there is as much of it to be outraged by. The use of hot women in advertising is a standard, why aren't you mentioning that? Overall, why do you keep mentioning different categories of things and saying that because one involves a man and one involves a woman they make a good comparison? Uber offering rides with women != ManServants, boothbabes != an orange juice ad. Try and find some actually similar examples to talk about.

Edit: although Uber == boothbabes seems accurate, so I guess they weren't all off!

Re: Peter Thiel: Uber is most ethically challenged company in Silicon Valley [video]

#120

Post by Lerc »

r00fus wrote: post #97
onewaystreet wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every notable tech company has at least one unethical story behind it. Steve Jobs and Woz selling blue boxes to fund Apple is probably the most famous.

Look at the morality between your comparison. Jobs/Woz wanted to defraud a monolithic monopoly (Ma Bell) while Uber is talking about getting back at journalists (mind you I have no naive view of "reporters" and their employers). Sounds pretty distinct to me - both are rules broken, just one is about silencing investigation and the other is about stealing from the rich.

I agree with your point, but there's a fair few genuine ethical issues from Jobs, sometimes even at the expense of Woz. Jobs was a bit of a dick sometimes, Woz still counted him a friend.
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