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Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

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Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#151

Post by tinco »

pekk wrote: post #62

With the top voted post being "systemd haters have gone too far," I find it worth mentioning that there is no relation between approving of death threats and thinking a systemd monoculture is a bad idea. Death threats are wrong. Victims aren't to blame for death threats. On the other hand, that doesn't do anything to redeem systemd or dismiss criticism of systemd. Unfortunately, now the meme will be that critics of s…

I don't think that is true at this point. Books of criticisms on systemd have already been written. There isn't a maintainer out there who hasn't heard all of it. Yet many people still insist on bothering the community with this, it's become a burden. And it's not a burden because the criticisms are valid, it's a burden because the criticisms don't actually contribute anything.

I think at this point it is safe to say that anyone voicing criticisms on systemd without contributing fixes or solutions to said problems is hostile to the Debian community, and should neither feel or be welcome.

Feeling unwelcome is the only way these people will realise they will either have to solve the problem themselves, or start a new community.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#152

Post by debacle »

protomyth wrote: post #137
debacle wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess Theo is unsavory but not abrasive. He is very principled and well-spoken. Linus doesn't care who he offends, and he wears that chip on his shoulder with pride.

> Theo is unsavory but not abrasive. What is your definition of unsavory? I have seen him be blunt, but that is a long way from unsavory.

I love Theo, but a lot of people have differing ideologies from him, and as well all know that isn't okay in the OSS ecosystem.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#154

Post by pikzen »

rdtsc wrote: post #55
rakoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"stuck" ? How was your init system choice enforced ? Did you have a gun pointed at your head ? Is there absolutely no working alternative ? You don't have to use systemd. If you keep using it when there are other working systems and you don't like it, the fault is entirely yours.

> You don't have to use systemd. Whatever the original problem was or the top link that is just not a viable solution. It is like saying "you don't have use libc, write your own". Or "Fine, Linus is a jerk, don't use the kernel, install minix but stop criticizing linux". Let's say I follow the advice and apt-get remove systemd from Ubuntu 14.10. It doesn't look good. It takes along with it gnome-session, gvfs, nautil…

Don't use Ubuntu, a distro that has explicitly said that they were going to support systemd and abandon sysvinit ?

One major problem is that gnome relies heavily on systemd. Good thing there are other DMs.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#156

Post by vidarh »

xtrumanx wrote: post #131
wtallis wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that a "my way or the highway" policy is more polite and better for the health of the project and developer community than the occasional bit of colorful language? It seems to me that the former is a much bigger insult in an "actions speak louder than words" kind of way, especially coming from people for whom the primary concern is producing working code, not politics.

1. I'm not complaining about colorful language. There's a difference between that and insulting people. > I don't understand why it's so hard to fucking understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. > wtallis, you've got to be the biggest fucking idiot to not understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. See the difference? 2. I'm not familiar with the way the Linux kernel contributions are managed. I assumed from what…

For Linux, the "your patches will not be accepted" responses comes approximately after you've ignored a dozen or so Linus rants, each of which will generally first come after you've ignored advice and suggestions from dozens of other people and still insisted on submitting broken stuff. Probably, if you manage to get "banned", at least one rant about you will have featured on HN or Reddit.

Rejecting patches happens often, and usually for mundane reasons. Rejecting people is extreme, and something that's only happened a very, very few times. Off the top of my head I can only remember Kay Sievers [1]. Even then he left the door open ("Let distributions merge it as they need to and maybe we can merge it once it has been proven to be stable by whatever distro that was willing to play games with the developers").

It's hard to get Linus to rant at you in the first place. It is many times as hard to get him to refuse to deal with your code. Basically, you have to persistently be submitting code that the kernel team considers total junk and persistently refuse to acknowledge or deal with the suggestions given.

[1] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#157

Post by asveikau »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #149
asveikau wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? Yeah I'm running testing. I have been running either testing or unstable on personal machines on a rolling basis since slink (released 1999) and I have experienced breakage of various sorts over the years, but nothing as fucked up as when the switch to systemd happened. > (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Sorry I don't have a lot…

To be fair, if you're experiencing bugs in the testing distribution and not filing them, then you really have no right to complain when they're not resolved…

This is actually a common way that a lot of people run debian, or at least used to be last I checked. Often if you don't do this you get an old kernel version that doesn't work with the latest hardware. (I've built machines, put Debian stable on them, and the SATA controller is completely unrecognized, whereas unstable works.) I have been running Debian this way for a long time without any major complaints. For something as critical as boot, typically my expectations established by years of use is they don't fuck it up this badly, don't merge in piece of shit software and make everything else depend on it. That expectation was broken egregiously for the first time ever for me, during a period of ~15 years of use. I am not exaggerating when I say I have been a Debian fan for a long time and I really question where the quality is going.

But OK, you and others are entitled to think I'm being capricious and haven't thought it out.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#158

Post by rdtsc »

pikzen wrote: post #154
rdtsc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't have to use systemd. Whatever the original problem was or the top link that is just not a viable solution. It is like saying "you don't have use libc, write your own". Or "Fine, Linus is a jerk, don't use the kernel, install minix but stop criticizing linux". Let's say I follow the advice and apt-get remove systemd from Ubuntu 14.10. It doesn't look good. It takes along with it gnome-session, gvfs, nautil…

Don't use Ubuntu, a distro that has explicitly said that they were going to support systemd and abandon sysvinit ? One major problem is that gnome relies heavily on systemd. Good thing there are other DMs.

So now have to switch distro with its whole echo system.

Wasn't that exactly the point of the argument -- how saying "just replace systemd" doesn't work and is not a realistic answer to any of the criticism?

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#159

Post by esaym »

SwellJoe wrote: post #145
JoshTriplett wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only speed difference (which from what I can tell is the only reason anyone uses systemd) Not even close. To the extent it improves performance, that's a nice side effect. For me, personally, it means a few lines of .service instead of a pile of init.d, service supervision when services unexpectedly exit, easy log integration to see what services are up to, and unified activation of services by a variety of mea…

In the long run, having a unified interface to every service on the system is a win. In the short run, we find ourselves with semi-broken, or somewhat less than ideal, tooling and interfaces and a reasonably large amount of learning friction where there was a low amount before. I've been a UNIX/Linux system administrator coming up on 20 years now (professionally since about '99), and I understand the pain. It's hard…

" we find ourselves with semi-broken, or somewhat less than ideal, tooling and interfaces and a reasonably large amount of learning friction where there was a low amount before"

Yes! Exactly! When you start breaking people's stuff that was working you will certainly not be getting compliments!

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#160

Post by the_why_of_y »

debacle wrote: post #132
uselessdguy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project. No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who…

> But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess Theo is unsavory but not abrasive. He is very principled and well-spoken. Linus doesn't care who he offends, and he wears that chip on his shoulder with pride.

Is that the same Theo who threw a tantrum because nobody notified him ahead of time of some OpenSSL vulnerability after he specifically declined an invitation to be on the cross-distro security mailing list where such notifications get posted?

http://lwn.net/Articles/601958/

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