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Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

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Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#131

Post by xtrumanx »

wtallis wrote: post #101
xtrumanx wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...how deserving his targets are when he does let loose... I think I see the problem here. I don't follow the Linux community that deeply but I've read one of his rants which was belittling and insulting to a volunteer maintainer and the context behind it didn't justify the abuse in my opinion . If you don't appreciate their code, get rid of them. They're probably not trying to intentionally screw up. And if they a…

So you're saying that a "my way or the highway" policy is more polite and better for the health of the project and developer community than the occasional bit of colorful language? It seems to me that the former is a much bigger insult in an "actions speak louder than words" kind of way, especially coming from people for whom the primary concern is producing working code, not politics.

1. I'm not complaining about colorful language. There's a difference between that and insulting people.

> I don't understand why it's so hard to fucking understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent.

> wtallis, you've got to be the biggest fucking idiot to not understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent.

See the difference?

2. I'm not familiar with the way the Linux kernel contributions are managed. I assumed from what I've heard that Linus is in charge and can reject patches. If that is the case, than a "my way or the highway" policy is the current policy. I may be wrong in this regard so please feel free to clear up any misunderstanding I may have.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#132

Post by debacle »

uselessdguy wrote: post #72
Stratoscope wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project. No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who…

> But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess

Theo is unsavory but not abrasive. He is very principled and well-spoken.

Linus doesn't care who he offends, and he wears that chip on his shoulder with pride.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#133

Post by thisGuysAccount »

nsxwolf wrote: post #82

This is a pretty hilarious nerd fight. Unlike GamerGate this has no relevance to anyone outside this little bubble and really sounds insane. Init daemons, people!

I've been thinking about pasting this news into my Facebook. Three times, erased each time.

"Guy gets multiple death threats because of the program he wants to start his computer is different from another program other people want to start their computers."

This isn't a hilarious nerd fight. This is some really misguided people who don't know how to communicate.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#134

Post by belorn »

tomp wrote: post #54
superuser2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops' lives (in a particularly uncharitable interpretation) revolve around reinforcing their own masculinity by winning fights and exerting dominance. Using that to protect damsels in distress from creepy male others/sexual predators is a highly masculinity-reinforcing, fatherly/brotherly and desirable thing to do. An effiminate man (using the again uncharitable notion that nerds with desk jobs are not manly in the e…

AFAIK, they pretty much ignore women's complaints as well (at least judging from reporting about e.g. Anita Sarkeesian).

The police department handed the information from Anita Sarkeesian to the FBI for investigation. The FBI has an ongoing investigation, have approached IGDA and together with bullying experts are working on the complaints.

I think very few cases has had such large impact as the one reported by Anita Sarkeesian.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#135

Post by protomyth »

uselessdguy wrote: post #53

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream falla…

> Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream fallacies (even though the non-systemd camp is an amorphous blob more than anything). This in turn gives moral high ground to the proponents and any attempt at debate devolves into the same dead ends and non-arguments between equally clueless factions.

This is a time honored way to destroy your opponents in politics even if their argument is better, more consistent, and logical. Associate them with radicals that glom onto any side with sufficient numbers. It works and frustrates those that come by their beliefs honestly. It is truly sad when this happens and is allowed to obscure a discussion.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#136

Post by SwellJoe »

esaym wrote: post #56
SwellJoe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all of the valid criticisms of systemd, you've chosen an imaginary one. Systemd provides better process handling and failure reporting than the initscripts it replaces (and mostly better than upstart, as well).

I really wondered whether people would sympathize with me or just flame me. I guess I can explain my 'imaginary' problems a bit. Like normal people, I had several random things thrown in rc.local(set drive power settings,disable blue tooth on laptops, set raid sync rates,ect). The first issue was, systemd never even executed this file. I had to go do random googling just to get it to execute. After that, it was hit o…

"I really wondered whether people would sympathize with me or just flame me."

It was not my intention to flame you. From your tone and sparse message, I assumed you were making yet another unfounded accusation about systemd; so many people on both sides (but mostly on the anti-systemd side) have been making ridiculous and untrue statements so often and for so long that I tend to just expect random made up nonsense to fly with reckless abandon. In your case, you have had a bad usability experience with systemd; and I can't deny your experience. I wasn't there.

That said, it is my understanding that rc.local continues to work fine on systems that choose to enable the compatibility layer. Fedora is my desktop and laptop OS of choice, and I don't think I did anything to make my rc.local files work. I don't use them for much, but I do have some custom hard disk spin down times and such setup on one of my machines, which continued to function after upgrading to a systemd-based version.

If your distro opted not to enable the compatibility layer by default, I suspect there's an easy way to do it yourself with a single command line or installation of a package.

Our servers all run CentOS and we've put a couple of new CentOS 7 systems online recently, and while we don't have any rc.local bits running on them, we do still have a few old style initscripts (in our products, embarrassingly enough, even though our bootup and shutdown module supports systemd and upstart, we still ship initscripts to start our own stuff), and they have continued to function correctly on CentOS 7.

In short, it has not been my experience that doing things the old way has been dramatically cut off for people who need to continue doing so for the time being. In my, admittedly limited, experience, I haven't noticed any difference except the "service" command now recommends systemctl when you run it.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#137

Post by protomyth »

debacle wrote: post #132
uselessdguy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project. No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who…

> But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess Theo is unsavory but not abrasive. He is very principled and well-spoken. Linus doesn't care who he offends, and he wears that chip on his shoulder with pride.

> Theo is unsavory but not abrasive.

What is your definition of unsavory? I have seen him be blunt, but that is a long way from unsavory.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#138

Post by rev »

cbd1984 wrote: post #118
esaym wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish I could get over it. But every time some random process fails to start at boot time I...well I cry a little knowing this is what we are now stuck with.

If systemd is that bad, where is The Distro Without systemd? You know, the Linux distro that sets itself apart from the rest by Not Having systemd. Just... not having it. Going with SysV init or BSD init or Something Which Is Not systemd. Because I don't see one, which implies it isn't that bad.

Guix, the GNU system, uses dmd.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#139

Post by sounds »

SFjulie1 wrote: post #117
cwyers wrote: post #109

Upon reflection, I don't think this is a systemd problem -- which is to say, many other distros (not even ones sponsored by Red Hat -- Arch, SuSE, Mageia, NixOS, etc.) have managed to switch to systemd as a default without this kind of a fuss. It's only Debian where this kind of a shitstorm has kicked off -- even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind…

debian is much more open source than companies. The switch to systemd is made by authority, not competence. The roadmap and the properties of systemd are totally awesome ... on the paper. The problem in reality is that authority does not makes good engineering. Marketing neither. Systemd can be picked up for way too many reasons but imposing a poorly designed solution ( ) by authority is hitting a nerve. This move is…

You may want to edit your post and use a different character than asterisk for footnotes.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#140

Post by wtallis »

xtrumanx wrote: post #131
wtallis wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that a "my way or the highway" policy is more polite and better for the health of the project and developer community than the occasional bit of colorful language? It seems to me that the former is a much bigger insult in an "actions speak louder than words" kind of way, especially coming from people for whom the primary concern is producing working code, not politics.

1. I'm not complaining about colorful language. There's a difference between that and insulting people. > I don't understand why it's so hard to fucking understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. > wtallis, you've got to be the biggest fucking idiot to not understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. See the difference? 2. I'm not familiar with the way the Linux kernel contributions are managed. I assumed from what…

For your first point, the difference will only ever be very small when the topic of discussion is something that is inherently associated with a particular person, such as a patch with a specific submitter. The phrasing of the former example is more passive-aggressive, but usually no less targeted.

For your second point, you said:

"If you don't appreciate their code, get rid of them. [...] tell them it's not working out and stop working with them."

That implies more than just rejecting bad patches, it implies rejecting the developer himself. That's extremely rare. The Linux kernel developers are very forgiving of mistakes: your patches will get rejected if they're bad, but they'll still get looked at until you establish a really bad track record of not learning from your mistakes.

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