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Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

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Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#121

Post by balabaster »

I don't really know any of the back story of this guy, but having been on the receiving end of similar poor behaviour myself, it's easy to see why he would be walking away.

This malicious behaviour is not okay out of anyone - leader or follower. When I was a kid, my parents asked me to consider the position: If my friend told me to stick my finger in the fire, would I? For those that shrug and blame it on Linus, I ask you also to consider that position; you're not 4, you're capable of critical thought. Stop being a dick and blaming it on others. You being a dick is on you, period.

I don't care if this is the example set by Linus himself - just because he does that, does not grant you leave to behave that way too. If he acts that way, I will consider him a dick. If you do that, I consider you a dick. I don't look at you, shrug my shoulders and say "Hey, I don't blame you, I blame Linus for setting a bad example." I judge him for his behaviour and for acting that way while being in a position of influence. I judge you for bad behaviour as well as bad judgment for considering that you can blame someone else for your own bad behaviour.

If you're working in a community that has garnered a reputation for poor behaviour because of its leaders and/or constituents, don't become that, you're better than that. If your leaders are like that, don't be scared to call them out. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, I don't care who it's from. Respect garners respect. If you're a dick to people, you don't deserve respect. It's okay to hold people accountable, it's okay to hold them to high standards, but stop being a dick. That's not okay.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#122

Post by cbd1984 »

jqm wrote: post #69
pekk wrote: post #62

With the top voted post being "systemd haters have gone too far," I find it worth mentioning that there is no relation between approving of death threats and thinking a systemd monoculture is a bad idea. Death threats are wrong. Victims aren't to blame for death threats. On the other hand, that doesn't do anything to redeem systemd or dismiss criticism of systemd. Unfortunately, now the meme will be that critics of s…

Exactly. There are very valid arguments against systemd that have nothing to do with being a "hater".

OK. So, given those valid arguments against it, which distros don't use systemd right now?

Because it seems that it would be really easy for a new distro to gain users by simply not using systemd, and staying with SysV init or similar.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#123

Post by uselessdguy »

cbd1984 wrote: post #119
uselessdguy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project. No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who…

I don't know, BSD seems to attract a lot of people who seem self-congratulatory that they're not using Linux, just like how MacOS has been the Anti-Windows since circa 1995. My theory is that it's straight-up due to how many people use Linux compared to other non-Windows OSes and the fact the average people have more say (or think they do) compared to The One Apple Way. Any large group will have assholes, and the num…

My personal experience is that BSD people by and large care about Linux mostly out of necessity, but nonetheless they're still knowledgeable about both. Mostly they're angry whenever the Linux community feels the need to reinvent yet another square wheel (as was mocked in the OpenBSD 5.2 release song), because it slows them from doing their own innovations and necessitates them to emulate Linux's interfaces.

In contrast, a disturbingly large number of Linux users remain willfully ignorant about other Unices and, worse, they attack them without knowing the first thing about them.

But yes, Linux users are dominant, so more idiots overall.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#124

Post by cwyers »

asveikau wrote: post #114
CoachRufus87 wrote: post #91

A bit of background on his resignation: http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_res...

> flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence. Wow, these are really contrasting examples. This HN thread is really focusing on the first category but I who haven't been following any of this actually had the impression that the 2nd category (incompetence) was right on the money regarding the recent bugs I've seen in my Debian installation. I've u…

Can you context this up for us? Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Or has your Debian system somehow gotten more buggy since they announced that systemd would be the default init system of the version of Debian that ISN'T OUT YET?

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#125

Post by jqm »

cbd1984 wrote: post #118
esaym wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish I could get over it. But every time some random process fails to start at boot time I...well I cry a little knowing this is what we are now stuck with.

If systemd is that bad, where is The Distro Without systemd? You know, the Linux distro that sets itself apart from the rest by Not Having systemd. Just... not having it. Going with SysV init or BSD init or Something Which Is Not systemd. Because I don't see one, which implies it isn't that bad.

There are distros that don't use systemd.

Slackware for one. Besides, appeal to popularity isn't a very good argument from my perspective.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#126

Post by X-Istence »

cbd1984 wrote: post #119
uselessdguy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project. No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who…

I don't know, BSD seems to attract a lot of people who seem self-congratulatory that they're not using Linux, just like how MacOS has been the Anti-Windows since circa 1995. My theory is that it's straight-up due to how many people use Linux compared to other non-Windows OSes and the fact the average people have more say (or think they do) compared to The One Apple Way. Any large group will have assholes, and the num…

So because BSD attracts people who seem self-congratulatory that they are not using Linux it begets a productive non-asshole environment?

The parent poster was stating that OpenBSD also has a strongly opinionated leader at the top (Theo de Raadt) who has been known to rant and rave like the best, yet unlike the Linux community the OpenBSD community as a whole does not behave like that and ships functioning code quickly and efficiently.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#127

Post by uselessdguy »

cbd1984 wrote: post #122
jqm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There are very valid arguments against systemd that have nothing to do with being a "hater".

OK. So, given those valid arguments against it, which distros don't use systemd right now? Because it seems that it would be really easy for a new distro to gain users by simply not using systemd, and staying with SysV init or similar.

Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, PCLinuxOS and all its derivatives. Then some more niche ones like Alpine Linux (which also eschews a lot of the GNU base system for alternatives) and Void Linux.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#128

Post by nitrogen »

rbanffy wrote: post #75
techdragon wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened. Gentoo is waiting to welcome all the systemD haters. OpenRC is going strong. We also support systemD as well because USE flags rock. In fact being able to see the sysV and systemD init files side by site was what finally convinced me it is an improvement. An improvement with many questionable additions... Like free money attached with losing my 25/20 eyesight to normal 20/20 or some other minor debilitat…

The Debian exiles will miss apt badly. Apt was what made me move from Red Hat.

Gentoo's emerge/portage is pretty nice, though it's been years since I've used it.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#129

Post by asveikau »

cwyers wrote: post #124
asveikau wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence. Wow, these are really contrasting examples. This HN thread is really focusing on the first category but I who haven't been following any of this actually had the impression that the 2nd category (incompetence) was right on the money regarding the recent bugs I've seen in my Debian installation. I've u…

Can you context this up for us? Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs? (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?) Or has your Debian system somehow gotten more buggy since they announced that systemd would be the default init system of the version of Debian that ISN'T OUT YET?

> Are you running the unstable testing branch and complaining about bugs?

Yeah I'm running testing. I have been running either testing or unstable on personal machines on a rolling basis since slink (released 1999) and I have experienced breakage of various sorts over the years, but nothing as fucked up as when the switch to systemd happened.

> (If so, have you filed these bugs with anyone?)

Sorry I don't have a lot of time for this. Usually when I have seen really bad issues running sid I just wait for them to get resolved after the next dist-upgrade or two. And that usually works well enough. Not this time though.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#130

Post by mtanski »

empressplay wrote: post #85

It should be obvious to anyone that RedHat has a vested interest in making the vast majority of Linux distributions dependent on technology it controls. Linux is its bread-and-butter. It appears RedHat has realised that, through systemd, it can readily provide preferential support for its own projects, and place roadblocks up for projects it does not control, thus extending its influence broadly and quickly. By using…

A couple points about RedHat:

First, it develops almost everything out in the open. That includes developers communicating with their coworkers through public mailing lists for those projects. Sometimes those are hosted by Redhat but most often they are hosed by other projects governance (free desktop, kernel, openjdk). When it comes to those projects employees end up communicating on the list instead of internal or in person to make sure everybody has access to the communication. Most OSS ran by companies loved here on HN (Google, Fb, etc) has development happen on internal lists with occasional code dumps.

Second, for almost all projects started by Redhat employees do not require copy right assignment. Yes, I know Fedora has something for their project but that seams to be an exception. No copyright assignment on systemd or many gnome sub-projects they started. Compare that again to OSS from Google, FB and even Ubuntu (upstart requires copy right assignment).

Third, and contrary to what you just said... YES YOU CAN FORK IT. It happens all the time. People build one person distros all the time (or obscure distros with a small group of volunteers). Hell, somebody even forked systemd (new project: useslessd) to remove things he considers bad.

So, in conclusion, what you call a compelling case is nothing more then argument on thin ice... at least in my eyes given the evidence. Technically they can exert control over the projects if they employ the maintainer. But, given the facts they not setup in a position to exploit it and given the current status quo we should see it coming.

I'm not affiliated with Redhat; I don't run Redhat; I know some people who work / worked at Redhat in past.

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