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President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

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351–360 of 449 posts

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-arguments are great. Personal attacks are not. You can make your point better by not making it about the other person's personal failings. Notice how I rephrased your point in my previous comment so that it wasn't about him, but was instead completely about history. It makes the point stronger.

And you can make your points better by attacking my central point. Besides, tracker1 isn't a child. If he is feeling uncomfortable with my prose, he can talk to me directly.

I don't have any reason to attack your central point (I find it mostly agreeable.)

I'm not defending tracker1; I'm defending Hacker News. Personal attacks make HN worse. They are low-value phrases that sometimes drag down high-value comments. The guidelines [0] are quite explicit about this, and the current top story [1] is about trying to improve comment quality (a discussion which is, in part, related to an e-mail exchange that came in response to a personal attack directed at my wife in [2].)

So, I reiterate: please don't make personal attacks on Hacker News.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html -- the paragraph with the word "shortened" in it

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8585597

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552958

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not exactly correct either. Around 1984 I was in Highschool and you could get "on line" via Compuserve. It was dial up but it used T1 and leased lines with other locations like the Airlines so you could, for example, view flights book a trip via Compuserve. I believe AAA (a travel service in the US) as also linked up this way too. It was not an always-on connection, but then neither was the Internet for many i…

I'm in Chicago. I had a BBS in the late 1980s, Compuserve before then, and access through a shared university account in the early 1990s. I did not have access that I could simply write a check for to consistently get access to, say, IRC and Usenet, until MCS started in ~1993. Obviously people were on the Internet before 1993, but I chose the term "consumer Internet" specifically to avoid this debate. I think it's cl…

no but you did write a check to your telephone company which everyone used at the time. And the problems were identical. You either got a busy tone or "all circuits are busy" message. Not trying to split hairs here, I agree on one hand that the technology is different but I am suggesting the problem is the same. We're talking about capacity issues and lobbyist. Although, telephone lines were subsidized where as I have a friend who lives just on the outskirts of local cable service and the cable company told him it would cost $30K just to run some coax down the street and under some railroad tracks. He's still stuck with dial-up as a result. Anyway...

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a fast lane would necessarily fuck the internet. In fact, with proper management it might actually be beneficial. For example, I'd love it if my work VPN could be prioritized over someones pron torrent during internet rush hour. Net neutrality wouldn't fix the Level3/ Verizon&Comcast issues. Net neutrality doesn't force free peering. When I mean fucking the internet up, I mean significant degrading of s…

>For example, I'd love it if my work VPN could be prioritized over someones pron torrent during internet rush hour. That would be great for you of course by why should ISPs get to determine whose packets are more important especially if the entry criterion to being important is basically "pay up"? What if the reverse were true and other users' packets were prioritized over your work ones simply because Netflix, YouTu…

Then I get worse service. Is that any different than Amazon offering cheap 1-day delivery and newegg doesn't? Virtually all markets have this sort of pay for premium service.

It certainly wouldn't be the end of the internet.

Moreover, this sort of price discrimination already happens at some level. Certainly that is the reason CDNs exist, to get a better, faster connection. Even Netflix puts its own servers into local ISPs for a fast connection.

The internet is far from a level playing field.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#354
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SSL everything.

Unless, of course, direct encrypted communication is prohibited. Because, you know, Internet is a public utility now, and if you are using public thing, you should abide by public's rules. Like connecting to SSL sites only using approved ISP SSL proxies that allow lawful intercept. After all, you accept that to drive on public roads you need a license. So, to browse on public internet, you need to follow the rules to…

I think that this creates both first and fourth amendment issues.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#356
post #310
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government created the internet. For a while in the early 90s corporations tried to create it, and what they came up with were walled gardens, the open internet blew them away, look up Compuserve, AOL and Prodigy. The internet works because of the underlying open, bidirectional, equally privileged connections. If the corps are starting to change that it must be stopped. The internet is one of humanities greatest…

The government didn't create the internet. At the most, the government gave money to some projects that developed some technologies that were subsequently used to create the internet. Yes, there were a lot of failed attempts at how to handle the informational world - like AOL (which btw is alive and well as a company with multibillion revenues), Compuserve, etc. - but some of these attempts worked. And that what we c…

At least theoretically, the government bureaucrat can be influenced for the general good. The corporate monopoly bureaucrat will fuck everybody over if it serves his interest.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#357

And it's already getting worse: https://twitter.com/SenTedCruz/status/531834493922189313 "Net Neutrality" is Obamacare for the Internet; the Internet should not operate at the speed of government.

Insurance companies are prohibited to have selection bias under ACA, and now telecoms under Title II. So yeah pretty close.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that my concern may be misplaced and everything could work out fine. I'd categorize myself as "cautiously optimistic" about these laws still, but wanted to bring this up since I don't see much discussion about it. Additionally, I almost brought this up in my original post, but decided against it, but "lawful content" is another phrase I commonly see in the same discussions. IANAL, but my understanding is that…

> IANAL, but my understanding is that unlawful != illegal. "Lawful" means the subject is specifically addressed and permitted by law, and "unlawful" is anything else. So traffic can be legal, but not lawful. Inasmuch as there is a distinction between "lawful" and "legal", but its pretty much the other way around. Both address conformity to the law, but "legal" focusses more on procedural, technical conformity. Someth…

does not compute hides for cover

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#359
post #235
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would an ISP bother building out the infrastructure if they can't extract a higher value from those that it most benefits (Netflix)? Netflix is not getting the benefit, the end user is. That is the demand side of things. They can and do charge more for higher bandwidth, and Netflix will require more than the national average to reliably stream at 1080p. Netflix only exists to fill that need, and the ISP exists…

You make a lot of valid points. I guess in general I don't believe that a government can somehow prevent a certain type of commercial transaction and somehow create value. The obvious counterexample that comes to mind, and that you alluded to, is that of ransom. However, I think that's a bit of a stretch and makes light of actual violence. One thing that stuck out to me though: > If it were the case that ISPs were th…

Dunno who is downvoting you, this is a sound debate. You are not trolling and it is abuse of the downvote button.

> I feel that opinions of issues are heavily influenced by the actors involved.

It is not so much individual commercial actors than ISP's in general having power. If they were being exploited through regulatory abuse, then they would be in a defensible position. But none of the policy surrounding them harms them significantly more than it helps, in that most of their networks were built on taxpayer dollars and that is a key reason why nobody can compete with them without state funding of infrastructure.

> from advertising to the endless variety of consumer goods available to people in the US

I agree wholeheartedly advertising is one of the worst industries around, because it creates terrible returns on investment (the real productivity gain of advertising is more informing consumers about goods and services than using psychological manipulation to get people to spend money a certain way).

But non-structural goods and services (ie, bread, or housing) has per unit per person utility. Common infrastructure like roads does not behave in the same "here are X units of good and Y units of buyer, and the market will adjust to make sure those numbers stay close to each other regardless of the number of competitors". With networking, power lines, roads, sewage systems, transit systems, etc - they all have the upfront opportunity costs, say the factory, but their marginal costs are nothing compared to them. Additionally, underutilized consumerate goods can just be shelved until sold. With bandwidth and power, unused power gets rerouted to inefficient storage mechanisms or just burns up on the wire. Unused electrical potential on the lines is just overbuilding without need, because maybe your wattage requirements in a region do not match the wires used (though this is rarely a thing, it is more often under-estimated). But there are no units to sell, and lost potential in the now is gone forever. If you build a highway that nobody drives on the investment was wasted, in the same way building a toy factory that never sells a toy is a waste, but for the highway the marginal cost of a driver on it (basically just wear on the road surface) is pennies, and the highway cost billions, whereas the toy factory cost millions and a million toys will sell for ten million.

With network wire the same thing applies. Underutilization means wasted potential, where the wire and infrastructure around it was incredibly expensive but the per-unit costs of electricity transporting packets over it is negligible. This means unlike unsold toys, any second the wire is underutilized is wasted productivity and potential.

The factory owner does care if hes manufacturing at capacity, but the market is much more fluid for toys and per-unit volume goods than it is for infrastructure.

> And I think that a light regulatory environment would best help foster this technology and encourage new entrants.

There are a lot of ways a regulation free market could solve our current networking mess. The biggest one would be that without "ownership" of wireless spectrum, you would have many more channels to broadcast on with radio technology, and could have radios that slide along much greater spectrum bands to find a compromise between bandwidth (high frequency) and range (penetration, mostly, at lower frequencies). You can balance usage more appropriately, and most everything from the 1mhz to 100ghz band is usable to some degree intelecommunications - the lower end is extremely low bandwidth, and the higher end has extremely short range, but in between you have a lot of potential value that is completely absent from the market as it is dedicated to private companies or one telecom provider.

In such a market it would not be about last mile probably, because the wireless technology would be so good. It makes a lot more sense to have one router with 100gbit bandwidth for a suburb than gigabit ethernet to a hundred homes, because you have the same underutilization problem on a per-consumer basis, and that last mile cable was the most expensive.

Besides that, in a regulation free environment, you could use wifi points to bridge property the owners would not let you lay wire on, or you could have communities agree to lay wire themselves.

And of course mesh networks, but there is still no solution for a macroscopic mesh network encompassing millions of nodes - you eventually have to gate them and have centralized routing between subnets because of the algorithmic complexity of each added node in a mesh like that.

And you can honestly do that today. You just need to wire between all your neighbors, and if they wire between all their neighbors, and you set up a subnet of your own with proper traffic monitoring, you would have a mesh net running under one backbone connection. But you still need that backbone, and you need to connect to it somehow.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#360
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the policing of content, which this legislation permits. Regulation is the beginning of the end of the open internet.

I'm not sure if you're ill-informed or being willfully ignorant, but making sure content is not policed is precisely why net neutrality is so necessary. This is much closer to Carterphone and not at all like FISA.

No, it is not. It's about gov't vs. private control. There are provisions for "lawful content" in this law.
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