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President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

whitehouse.gov

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Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#291

Post by emcrazyone »

tptacek wrote: post #282
emcrazyone wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not exactly correct. The Internet that we know today existed long before 1977. Around 1987, a freshman in college, I could ftp and gopher with other Universities. I was tickled pink when I found out I could query a time server in Japan from my dorm room of a Michigan University!

The advent of the consumer Internet occurred at the point where most major metro areas had a commercial ISP from which you could buy dial-in access. That was not the case in 1984.

That's not exactly correct either. Around 1984 I was in Highschool and you could get "on line" via Compuserve. It was dial up but it used T1 and leased lines with other locations like the Airlines so you could, for example, view flights book a trip via Compuserve. I believe AAA (a travel service in the US) as also linked up this way too. It was not an always-on connection, but then neither was the Internet for many in the early 1990s. I ran a BBS in the 80s on a Commodore computer and I would use a dial-up feature to log into other BBSes to trade data and make it available on my site. One commercial service was called Don Best Sports that offered betting spreads (aka football lines). Don Best Sports, just to pick on one example, is now available with your Web browser but in the 1980s I could get Las Vegas spread data through a coax connection (data connection) from a local telephone or certain participating cable companies. This was all available in the mid to late 80s via an always on connection like the Universities were. Don Best Sports, in particular, would give you a cable modem that had a DB9 connection for serial data and it was a live feed in 1985 when I was involved with it.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#292

Post by aragot »

emcrazyone wrote: post #270
couchand wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pretty massive stretch to go from "ISPs are permitted to block illegal traffic" to "ISPs are required to perform deep-packet inspection to ensure the legality of all traffic they carry".

Agree. ISP owner here. Not all web sites or IP addresses contain 100% illegal material. Virtual hosting (hosting more than one web site from same IP address) poses problems as does content among sub-domains. I don't have the resources to monitor and track such things and if I were forced into it, I would either go out of business or try to become a search engine.

I don't see why the good old model of "Someone deposits a complaint against a website at a police station, then the server/website is investigated upon, then the fine is raised against the renter/owner of the server" isn't enough.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#293

Post by Alupis »

feld wrote: post #275
AndrewHampton wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're correct and deep packet inspection is prohibited. The language being used still concerns me though. > If a consumer requests access to a website or service, and the content is legal, your ISP should not be permitted to block it. This implies that ISPs would be permitted to block illegal content. How can they know traffic is legal without some form of traffic monitoring/inspection?

Usenet is a common carrier service. However, they do make content inaccessible if there's a takedown request for copyright. But they don't filter anything that gets uploaded or block your downloads.

i don't think usenet is a common carrier service. if it were, it would be illegal to block or prohibit access to it... and currently a lot of ISP's explicitly block access to usenet.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#294

Post by Alupis »

randomfool wrote: post #244
dguaraglia wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, just think about it: now you have the wedge in, there'll be a massive lobby (Hollywood, recording companies, 'big media' if you will) trying to use that wedge to push stronger legislation in. In fact, the government itself (NSA, FBI) will think 'hey, now that we have this, we might as well use it to Protect Our Children (tm)'. On the other hand, besides the ACLU and maybe a few people organizing ov…

SSL everything.

You mean: "TLS Everything" ;-P

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#295

Post by dragonwriter »

DigitalSea wrote: post #154

As per usual with all politicians, these are just words. Nice words, but until a bill is passed and there is movement in the senate to make something like this closer to a reality, words are meaningless. My question to Obama is: why now? This whole net neutrality debate has been going on long before Obama started his first term of presidency, why wait until you are almost out of the White House to act upon something…

> This whole net neutrality debate has been going on long before Obama started his first term of presidency, why wait until you are almost out of the White House to act upon something as important as this?

Appointing pro-neutrality Democrats to the FCC is doing something about it, and the Commission majority has been pro-neutrality and actively seeking pro-neutrality regulations for quite some time.

(I suppose he could have done more to find pro-neutrality non-Democrats to appoint to the other seats given the no-more-than-three-members-from-one-party rule that Congress has imposed on the FCC.)

> Either way, if Obama can get a bill deeming internet to be classified as a utility within the next two years, maybe he will leave behind a legacy that we talk of in the years to come

Title II classification is an FCC decision. Legislation could direct (or prevent) it, but that's not Obama isn't seeking legislative action.

> More interesting is Hillary Clinton's position on net neutrality, since polls make her the most likely winner of the next elections at this point.

2016 polls at this point are meaningless. If you looked at 2008 polls in 2006, they said the same thing -- and Barack Obama won. If you looked at 2004 polls in 2002, Lieberman was certainly not a shoe-in to win the general election, but the most likely to win the Democratic nomination at least, which he still didn't due (even with his Joementum).

In 1998, such polls would have accurately predicted who would get the most votes in the 2000 Presidential election, but still wouldn't have predicted who the next President would be.

About all Presidential polls just after the preceding midterm election are good for telling you is who the media is going to spend disproportionate time talking about for the much of next two years.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#296

Post by tptacek »

emcrazyone wrote: post #291
tptacek wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advent of the consumer Internet occurred at the point where most major metro areas had a commercial ISP from which you could buy dial-in access. That was not the case in 1984.

That's not exactly correct either. Around 1984 I was in Highschool and you could get "on line" via Compuserve. It was dial up but it used T1 and leased lines with other locations like the Airlines so you could, for example, view flights book a trip via Compuserve. I believe AAA (a travel service in the US) as also linked up this way too. It was not an always-on connection, but then neither was the Internet for many i…

I'm in Chicago. I had a BBS in the late 1980s, Compuserve before then, and access through a shared university account in the early 1990s. I did not have access that I could simply write a check for to consistently get access to, say, IRC and Usenet, until MCS started in ~1993.

Obviously people were on the Internet before 1993, but I chose the term "consumer Internet" specifically to avoid this debate. I think it's clear that the Internet wasn't on Group W Cable's mind in 1983.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#297

Post by smsm42 »

randomfool wrote: post #244
dguaraglia wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, just think about it: now you have the wedge in, there'll be a massive lobby (Hollywood, recording companies, 'big media' if you will) trying to use that wedge to push stronger legislation in. In fact, the government itself (NSA, FBI) will think 'hey, now that we have this, we might as well use it to Protect Our Children (tm)'. On the other hand, besides the ACLU and maybe a few people organizing ov…

SSL everything.

Unless, of course, direct encrypted communication is prohibited. Because, you know, Internet is a public utility now, and if you are using public thing, you should abide by public's rules. Like connecting to SSL sites only using approved ISP SSL proxies that allow lawful intercept. After all, you accept that to drive on public roads you need a license. So, to browse on public internet, you need to follow the rules too. And the rules say law enforcement should be able to see what you are transmitting - given properly signed court order, of course - so that means you can not use non-interceptable encryption. See how this logic works?

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#298

Post by randyrand »

mhluongo wrote: post #274
fche wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

two wrongs don't make a right

Catchy, but inappropriate. If there were a free market way to reset the playing field, I'd certainly prefer that. But I've yet to hear one, and crony capitalists are a problem as much as statists.

"Mr. Milton, how much government intervention is required to deal with monopolies and..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLBzfFGFQU

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#299

Post by drawkbox »

I hope this isn't just hope and words, Obama needs to make this his legacy issue.

No segregation or discrimination online. There are no fast lanes, only slow lanes and tolls roads in our future if this isn't preserved. The internet is one last place of freedom in the US, don't turn it into a class/caste based system.

Re: President Obama Calls for a Free and Open Internet

#300

Post by crazy1van »

First, let me say that my local ISPs have left a lot to be desired. Comcast and Verizon have driven me crazy in the past. But making them a utility scares me. As bad as my ISPs have been, looking back 15 years, I was on a 56k modem. Now I have 50 mbps broadband. When I look at other utilities like power and water, I've seen zero innovation and my bill continues to rise.

Something should be done, but I'd rather the focus be on removing barriers to more local competition by getting rid of ordinances that create a defacto monopoly by constricting access to utility poles and right-of-ways. When Verizon offered fios to my area, overnight comcast dropped their prices and then raised their speeds significantly. I want more of that.

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