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I don't like you very much

whattofix.com

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Re: I don't like you very much

#31

Post by DanielBMarkham »

gdp wrote: post #16
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the author, I've done a poor job of communicating. For that, I apologize. Nobody is at fault here. Let me be perfectly clear about this. The question is what types of lessons to learn from interactions with other people. You're never, ever going to learn the exact motives of everybody you interact with. In each of these cases, multiple attempts were made to understand and communicate motives, paradigms, and worldv…

OK, perhaps I didn't phrase my objection very well. > The purpose is to review various people that didn't like me and explore why. I guess my problem with the article was that the tone implied that most of these people weren't justified in not liking you, or that it was some natural effect of a bad situation, rather than something caused by your own actions.

my problem with the article was that the tone implied that most of these people weren't justified in not liking you, or that it was some natural effect of a bad situation, rather than something caused by your own actions.

The tone was due to a hurried write, as was the ham-fisted nature.

Of course from their end these people were completely justified in not liking me.

But also of course from my side it looks unjustified. How else could it look? From my angle, just like them, I've been acting rationally and with good intentions all along.

Re: I don't like you very much

#32

Post by DanielBMarkham »

gdp wrote: post #13
Tichy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, did you mirror this comment on whattofix, or is it some feature of that blog to include HN comments?

I didn't do anything except post here, so I assume it's a feature of that blog.

I thought you had a great comment, so I manually entered it.

My article had a lot of logic and tone problems which you pointed out. I thought readers of the blog should see your comments.

Let me know if this bugs you and I will remove it.

Re: I don't like you very much

#33

Post by DanielBMarkham »

edw519 wrote: post #9

...most people could care less about me one way or the other -- but some folks actively dislike me. You never really know if you're pushing hard enough until you ruffle a few feathers along the way. I'd rather have a few folks "actively dislike me" than worry if I compromised too many times over the years. I haven't and it sounds like you haven't either. I think we're both doing fine. Once I started getting glowing r…

You never really know if you're pushing hard enough until you ruffle a few feathers along the way.

I used to think if I worked hard enough, I could get anybody to like me. When people didn't, I viewed it as some sort of personal mistake.

Now I'm thinking that random chance has a lot to do with it. The more people you interact with, the more who are not going to like you -- there is always going to be that 1-5%.

Oddly enough from this position I am beginning to see the logic of your point, although I have never taken it to heart. The more real work you are doing, the more people you interact with, the more change you make -- of course is going to ruffle feathers. You can't help it.

Re: I don't like you very much

#34

Post by DanielBMarkham »

jodrellblank wrote: post #29

I want to highlight this paragraph: I think the worst attribute any team member can have is not wanting to make waves. In fact, I think it's the number one attribute I would actively seek out to exclude from a team. Everybody has to work without nets on an agile team. If we're not taking emotional chances and communicating, we're losing ground. Is this wisdom born from long experience or is it unwise naivety? Is ther…

There's a trick here. At the surface it sounds naive, sure.

The trick is that people can and should passionately defend and believe in the viewpoints, espouse and defend them, and then go along with what the group decides.

Either "passionately defending" or "going along" is not sufficient in itself. You have to have both.

Re: I don't like you very much

#35

Post by DanielBMarkham »

gdp wrote: post #17
sirrocco wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you're not answering I'm sending the invite again. And if still nothing I'm calling you :). Anyhow, I think it's polite to answer to a request - even if it is - "dude , I never did like you, sorry"

Somebody who repeatedly sends invites and then calls is not going to get a recommendation from me. If you are actually worthy of recommendation, people will probably do them with very little encouragement. Hounding people for recommendations will either lead to refusal (which will inspire you to write a blog post about people who don't like you), or people will write you a mildly insincere recommendation to avoid cau…

Actually the backstory to this post is pertinent here as well.

I sent him an email on an old personal email address a few weeks ago, pointing out that we always didn't agree but we always respected and liked each other and if he could spare a few kind words it would mean a lot to me. I didn't receive a response.

I was reading a great book on consulting this week, and it pointed out that you should take emotional chances with our work. Reach out to people emotionally to find out where they are coming from.

About this same time, I noticed he recommended one of the other guys that was on the team.

So I sent him another email at his work address -- basically a repeat of the first email. I figured either he didn't get the first email or the answer was no. And if the answer was no, I should find out why (which I plan on doing when I get back) Either way, it was a win.

Of all things, I did not want an insincere recommendation. Rather I am extremely curious as to why two people who are supposedly experts on teams don't have the mutual respect it takes to point out and praise the positive qualities of the other, even if they disagree. I imagine I somehow ticked the fellow off to the point of hurt feelings, but if so, I am unaware of when that happened. Like I said, on a personal level we always seemed to get along just fine.

Re: I don't like you very much

#36

Post by ramanujan »

One thing I noticed is that while there are quite a lot of posts on his site about "agile" and "methodology" I see basically nothing in the way of technical stuff (meaning working code) on his front page or in his tags list.

Sets off my spidey sense for PHB.

Re: I don't like you very much

#37

Post by scotch_drinker »

ramanujan wrote: post #36

One thing I noticed is that while there are quite a lot of posts on his site about "agile" and "methodology" I see basically nothing in the way of technical stuff (meaning working code) on his front page or in his tags list. Sets off my spidey sense for PHB.

Really? Because a Scrumaster or an agile project manager who doesn't post code immediately is irrelevant? That's an odd conclusion to make.

It seems clear to me after reading several of his posts that he manages people. While it is certainly true that there are a subset of managers who are also PHBs, I don't think you could highly correlate those who are and those who aren't by the number of posts they make about working code.

If a person wrote nothing but posts about code and how it worked, no one would ever disparage them because they weren't a manager. Why is it that people disparage managers who don't write about code?

Re: I don't like you very much

#38

Post by ramanujan »

scotch_drinker wrote: post #37
ramanujan wrote: post #36

One thing I noticed is that while there are quite a lot of posts on his site about "agile" and "methodology" I see basically nothing in the way of technical stuff (meaning working code) on his front page or in his tags list. Sets off my spidey sense for PHB.

Really? Because a Scrumaster or an agile project manager who doesn't post code immediately is irrelevant? That's an odd conclusion to make. It seems clear to me after reading several of his posts that he manages people. While it is certainly true that there are a subset of managers who are also PHBs, I don't think you could highly correlate those who are and those who aren't by the number of posts they make about wor…

> Why is it that people disparage managers who don't write about code?

Because it increases the probability that they don't understand what they're managing.

Look at Peter Norvig or Urs Hoelzle or Jeff Dean. They are still very, very technical despite managing many people. That earns them credibility among their troops.

By contrast, this guy has written about 70 posts on Agile with almost zero code. I could find exactly three lines of code on his entire site under the F# tag, though I didn't look that hard.

Bottom line is that he's unlikely to be someone who would earn an engineer's technical respect.

Re: I don't like you very much

#39

Post by raganwald »

ramanujan wrote: post #38
scotch_drinker wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Because a Scrumaster or an agile project manager who doesn't post code immediately is irrelevant? That's an odd conclusion to make. It seems clear to me after reading several of his posts that he manages people. While it is certainly true that there are a subset of managers who are also PHBs, I don't think you could highly correlate those who are and those who aren't by the number of posts they make about wor…

> Why is it that people disparage managers who don't write about code? Because it increases the probability that they don't understand what they're managing. Look at Peter Norvig or Urs Hoelzle or Jeff Dean. They are still very, very technical despite managing many people. That earns them credibility among their troops. By contrast, this guy has written about 70 posts on Agile with almost zero code. I could find exac…

I agree that he's unlikely to be someone who would earn an engineer's technical respect. By any chance are there other competencies a manager of technical projects ought to have?

Re: I don't like you very much

#40

Post by raganwald »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #34
jodrellblank wrote: post #29

I want to highlight this paragraph: I think the worst attribute any team member can have is not wanting to make waves. In fact, I think it's the number one attribute I would actively seek out to exclude from a team. Everybody has to work without nets on an agile team. If we're not taking emotional chances and communicating, we're losing ground. Is this wisdom born from long experience or is it unwise naivety? Is ther…

There's a trick here. At the surface it sounds naive, sure. The trick is that people can and should passionately defend and believe in the viewpoints, espouse and defend them, and then go along with what the group decides. Either "passionately defending" or "going along" is not sufficient in itself. You have to have both.

There's a phrase for this, it's known as having Strong beliefs, weakly held.
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