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The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

classics.mit.edu

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Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#61

Post by Jach »

cm2012 wrote: post #47
joaorico wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's. http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Lib... "At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under…

I'd rather be comfortable. The life of animals in the wild is generally brutal and short - give me my blankets any day over some sense of duty.

This thread reminded me of an excerpt from the beginning of http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/dimtext/kjn/people/heavies...

"Dionysius of Heracleia was notorious for his appetite, and eventually grew so weighty that he could scarcely budge: he suffered from apnea or narcolepsy besides, prompting his doctors to prick his flesh with needles whenever he fell asleep on his throne. A contemporary poet has him declare that he aspired to end his days 'on my back, lying on my many rolls of fat, scarcely uttering a word, taking labored breaths, and eating my fill,' for of all the ways a man might die, an excess of luxury was the only truly happy death. Nevertheless, he lived to what was then the ripe old age of 55, earning a reputation for fairness and generosity that competed with his size as an object of astonishment."

Rejection of duty is rejection of responsibility. I have no complaints about people who do so -- and would enjoy more vacations of that sort myself -- so long as they've set up their lives to not be responsible for others during their rejection period. It may be better to find ways of enjoying life's comforts while staying on top of your business, though.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#62

Post by ashark »

jjbohn wrote: post #7

This has become my preferred translation. It's a great modern translation and uses very approachable language. To me it reads much more like a journal than the other available translations. http://amzn.to/1xy6LYZ

Unhappy with my existing copy and as part of a general effort to replace low-quality physical books with either higher-quality dead-trees or ebooks, I surveyed every translation of Meditations that I could find a few months ago, comparing key passages between them and with the original Greek.

I settled on Maxwell Staniforth's translation. The only hardcover of it I could find was from the Folio Society[1]. There may be paperbacks available from other publishers, I don't know.

Folios are somewhat cheaper on the used market, and used copies of Folio Society books tend to be exceptionally well-kept, probably because they're so pricey new.

As usual, most older (public domain) translations don't have much going for them for a modern reader. Several of the newer ones were OK, but Staniforth's manages to hold very close to the original while remaining easy to read, besting most other translations on both fronts, IMO.

The Hays translation linked by the parent strays, to my eye, exceptionally far from the form of the Greek text, so if fidelity to the original is important to you I'd avoid it.

Hopefully that helps save someone the three or four hours I lost to this :-)

[1] http://www.foliosociety.com/book/MDS/meditations

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#63

Post by ca98am79 »

This is one of the best books I have ever read - I highly recommend it. It inspired Tolstoy, Gandhi, and many many others.

There were many quotes in this book that have had a deep impact on me. One I thought was interesting is this:

> Live not as though there were a thousand years ahead of you. Fate is at your elbow; make yourself good while life and power are still yours.

It struck me that even if Marcus Aurelius had actually lived a thousand years, he would have died a thousand years ago.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#64

Post by maroonblazer »

randallsquared wrote: post #58
joaorico wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's. http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Lib... "At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under…

Unfortunately, looking at what other entities do doesn't provide any answer to what you ought to do. Is vs ought is a serious problem, unsolved and (as far as I can see) unsolvable. We end up doing things for no reason other than that we feel like it. But, if your philosophy suggests that you should do things in spite of how you feel, that's going to be a problem.

"looking at what other entities do doesn't provide any answer to what you ought to do."

It doesn't? If my neighbor rises early, works hard and seems happier than me, whereas I spend all day in bed and feel depressed, doing what he's doing isn't a bad place to start.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#65

Post by morganf »

Um. Last year, I re-read Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and my favorite chapter (written in such a funny way!) is his detailing how his wife was having sex with everyone under the sun, and everyone in Rome knew it. Except for Marcus Aurelius himself; he lived in such a bubble, he couldn't see the reality in front of his nose. He was so unable to teach his son, Commodus, that when his son became emperor... well, Commodus turned out to be one of the most cruel and evil emperors in the history of Rome.

This made me question the "wisdom" of his Meditations (which, as a kid, I loved reading and whose advice I used to love): knowing this is how he lived and ruled and raised children, and those were the consequences... are we sure it's good advice? I'm not anymore.

Text here: http://sacred-texts.com/cla/gibbon/01/daf01013.htm

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#66

Post by michaelsbradley »

jonstewart wrote: post #20
molsongolden wrote: post #13

I have a copy on my nightstand that I read semi-frequently. It's interesting to keep in mind that he wrote them as a personal journal and never intended for his writings to be read by a broader audience. He frequently chastises himself and one of my favorite reflections comes from the beginning of Book V. The translation from the OP isn't the best but it's all I have on hand: "In the morning when thou risest unwillin…

I, too, keep a copy on the nightstand. It's the stoic's bible.

Those interested in Stoicism, and who are curious if and how its ideals might be "baptized" and employed in a Christian philosophy of life, ought to look into the writings of Fr. Alphonsus Rodriguez, who has been described by some as a "Christian Seneca":

Practice of Perfection and Christian Virtues

https://archive.org/details/PPCV-Manresa

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#67

Post by ubernostrum »

morganf wrote: post #65

Um. Last year, I re-read Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and my favorite chapter (written in such a funny way!) is his detailing how his wife was having sex with everyone under the sun, and everyone in Rome knew it. Except for Marcus Aurelius himself; he lived in such a bubble, he couldn't see the reality in front of his nose. He was so unable to teach his son, Commodus, that when his son became emperor... well, Commodus…

Marcus also broke with tradition on the succession. Previously, emperors would look for someone who seemed to fit their idea of a good heir, and then adopt. Marcus broke that tradition and simply passed the throne on to his biological son, with disastrous consequences.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#68

Post by sfgc »

jacobolus wrote: post #31
niels_olson wrote: post #4

I highly recommend William Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life, then reading Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, et al. As an aside: I listened to Irvine on audiobook immediately after listening to Sherry Turkle's Alone Together. It was like reading about a disease and then the treatment. Recommend, would do again.

I’d recommend skipping Irvine’s book and just going straight to the sources. I didn’t feel like he added much, and thought his book was poorly structured and overly didactic; too close to the style of the popular self-help book for my taste. I also felt like he projected many of his own opinions/conclusions back on the authors he was discussing. Maybe my impression is biased by the uninspiring quality of his prose on…

I agree completely. The subject matter in the book is worth review but I found his style so distracting it was difficult to finish. It has the feel of a first writing assignment where the suggested format was followed very closely chapter after chapter. Not a book you get lost in reading.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#70

Post by tjradcliffe »

randallsquared wrote: post #58
joaorico wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's. http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Lib... "At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under…

Unfortunately, looking at what other entities do doesn't provide any answer to what you ought to do. Is vs ought is a serious problem, unsolved and (as far as I can see) unsolvable. We end up doing things for no reason other than that we feel like it. But, if your philosophy suggests that you should do things in spite of how you feel, that's going to be a problem.

What is it about you that makes you think the is-ought problem is a problem you ought to be worried about?

Advocates of the importance of the is-ought problem want us to be deeply concerned about it, but they never explain why we ought to be. And in fact, we ought not be worried about it whether it is solved, unsolved or unsolvable:

Once we identify what it is in our nature that makes solving the is-ought problem a problem we ought to be worried about, we will have solved the is-ought problem and it will no longer be a problem we ought to be worried about.

Until we have identified what it is in our nature that makes the is-ought problem a problem we ought to be worried about, we have no reason to consider it a problem we ought to be worried about.

QED

For myself, I think the is-ought problem is ill-posed in its traditional "ultimate moral justification" form and trivially easy in any sensible form that acknowledges the vast amount of stuff Hume didn't know, like evolutionary biology. The sensible form doesn't solve the ultimate-moral-justification question Hume was concerned with for the same reason chemists never solved the creation of the Philosopher's Stone alchemists were concerned with: because such problems are the result of bizarre fantasies that have nothing to do with actual human existence. Science will never tell us how to forge the One Ring, either, but that isn't because of the limitations of science, it's because the One Ring is fantasy, just like ultimate moral justifications and the Philosopher's Stone.

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