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The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

classics.mit.edu

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Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#51

Post by patfla »

amelius wrote: post #33

Just checked wikipedia [1], and found this critique: > D.A. Rees calls the Meditations "unendingly moving and inspiring", but does not offer them up as works of original philosophy. Bertrand Russell found them contradictory and inconsistent, evidence of a "tired age" where "even real goods lose their savour". Using Marcus as an example of greater Stoic philosophy, he found their ethical philosophy to contain an eleme…

I read the Meditations. It was good and I enjoyed it. It has many wise things to say and it expresses itself in a 'modern' voice. The mindset doesn't seem antiquated at all.

That said, it wasn't written for this kind of consumption and the book was repetitive. It took me longer to read than I 'd hoped.

Marcus Aurelius spent several decades before becoming emperor as a general out on Rome's borders which for the most part must have been a miserable existence and the reason, even need, for his Stoicism seems clear.

I consider it an irony of his 'wisdom' that he was the last in a line of 'good' Roman emperors who'd all been appointed by their predecessors on the basis of ability, as opposed to passed from father to son.

It was probably going to be hard to continue the tradition anyway but Aurelius passed the emperor's crown to his son and the tradition was broken. His son Commodus' reign was noticeably less successful than any of the previous five appointed emperors and Commodus was assassinated after 12 years in power.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#52

Post by joaorico »

cm2012 wrote: post #47
joaorico wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's. http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Lib... "At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under…

I'd rather be comfortable. The life of animals in the wild is generally brutal and short - give me my blankets any day over some sense of duty.

Nature and evolution provided us with a whole hierarchy of needs, and some people are no longer surrounded by predators and do have a reasonable social security net. A life under warm blankets? The last paragraph addresses the comfort need. "You don't love yourself enough" is somewhere midway in the hierarchy.

Related pseudo-Einstein quote: "“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life. All that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.”"

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#53

Post by sgentle »

joaorico wrote: post #43
molsongolden wrote: post #13

I have a copy on my nightstand that I read semi-frequently. It's interesting to keep in mind that he wrote them as a personal journal and never intended for his writings to be read by a broader audience. He frequently chastises himself and one of my favorite reflections comes from the beginning of Book V. The translation from the OP isn't the best but it's all I have on hand: "In the morning when thou risest unwillin…

I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's. http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Lib... "At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under…

The Gregory Hays translation is great. I didn't even finish Meditations the first time I tried because the language in my translation was dry and archaic to the point of being distracting. I basically had to read each page twice and couldn't get into the flow of actually understanding and enjoying what he was trying to say.

The original wasn't meant to be a dry treatise; it was a journal. I think a rendering that uses personal and simple language is more faithful than one that goes for the inscrutable ancient wisdom angle.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#54

Post by jedc »

jacobolus wrote: post #31
niels_olson wrote: post #4

I highly recommend William Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life, then reading Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, et al. As an aside: I listened to Irvine on audiobook immediately after listening to Sherry Turkle's Alone Together. It was like reading about a disease and then the treatment. Recommend, would do again.

I’d recommend skipping Irvine’s book and just going straight to the sources. I didn’t feel like he added much, and thought his book was poorly structured and overly didactic; too close to the style of the popular self-help book for my taste. I also felt like he projected many of his own opinions/conclusions back on the authors he was discussing. Maybe my impression is biased by the uninspiring quality of his prose on…

I disagree. I thought that his book framed the larger issues of stoicism well, so I could better understand the source material as the next step. (Particularly since some of the translations use language that's not particularly accessible).

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#55

Post by jjbohn »

Kaibeezy wrote: post #45
amelius wrote: post #33

Just checked wikipedia [1], and found this critique: > D.A. Rees calls the Meditations "unendingly moving and inspiring", but does not offer them up as works of original philosophy. Bertrand Russell found them contradictory and inconsistent, evidence of a "tired age" where "even real goods lose their savour". Using Marcus as an example of greater Stoic philosophy, he found their ethical philosophy to contain an eleme…

I'd be interested in reading more along those lines too. Anyone recommend an article or book?

Supposedly, The Obstacle is the Way is in the vein. I haven't read it yet; it's on my list this month though. Supposedly a fairly good read though. It's written by a big PR guy though so who knows.

http://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-Triumph/...

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#56

Post by voltagex_ »

ams6110 wrote: post #46
jjbohn wrote: post #7

This has become my preferred translation. It's a great modern translation and uses very approachable language. To me it reads much more like a journal than the other available translations. http://amzn.to/1xy6LYZ

Thanks for the recommendation (really) but please don't use URL shorteners.

Also, if you went to that link, your session (?) is now tagged with the affiliate code "mushavproboo-20".

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#57

Post by benrhughes »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #10

Anyone who loves Marcus's Meditations will be blown away by Epictetus.

I completely agree. It's not surprising though: Discourses and The Enchiridion were delivered as lectures; Meditations is a personal diary.

Marcus was obviously heavily influenced by Epictetus, and at times manages to state some of his ideas more poetically (esp in the Hays translation). Overall though, The Enchiridion is a much better base for Stoic philosophy. It's short, acerbic and almost every section can send you off into deep thought.

Meditations is mostly interesting as an example of someone trying to life a Stoic life - it shows Marcus' failures, his attempts to conquer his fears. It's well worth reading, but you'll learn more from Epictetus.

Edit: for Epictetus, I prefer the George Long over the Elizabeth Carter: http://www.ptypes.com/enchiridion.html

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#58

Post by randallsquared »

joaorico wrote: post #43
molsongolden wrote: post #13

I have a copy on my nightstand that I read semi-frequently. It's interesting to keep in mind that he wrote them as a personal journal and never intended for his writings to be read by a broader audience. He frequently chastises himself and one of my favorite reflections comes from the beginning of Book V. The translation from the OP isn't the best but it's all I have on hand: "In the morning when thou risest unwillin…

I recommend Gregory Hays' new translation, without the 'thou's and 'dost's. http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Modern-Lib... "At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: ‘I have to go to work–as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for–the things which I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under…

Unfortunately, looking at what other entities do doesn't provide any answer to what you ought to do.

Is vs ought is a serious problem, unsolved and (as far as I can see) unsolvable. We end up doing things for no reason other than that we feel like it. But, if your philosophy suggests that you should do things in spite of how you feel, that's going to be a problem.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#59

Post by jjbohn »

voltagex_ wrote: post #56
ams6110 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the recommendation (really) but please don't use URL shorteners.

Also, if you went to that link, your session (?) is now tagged with the affiliate code "mushavproboo-20".

Bah, sorry about that. I copied it out of the chrome extension that I use to promote books on my blog out of habit. My bad. Won't happen again.

Re: The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

#60

Post by jjbohn »

voltagex_ wrote: post #56
ams6110 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the recommendation (really) but please don't use URL shorteners.

Also, if you went to that link, your session (?) is now tagged with the affiliate code "mushavproboo-20".

For kicks and transparency sake, here's the bitlink: https://bitly.com/1xy6LYZ+
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