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Let's Talk About Beacons

nfarina.com

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Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#51

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mojuba wrote: post #50
m_eiman wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

despite the hype BLE turns out to be a niche technology with poor capabilities and questionable benefits. While I agree that beacons are over-hyped, I think it's worth pointing out that BLE does other things that I think are more useful. Being able to talk to devices without having to perform the awkward pairing process, for example.

Pairing is an equivalent of connecting devices with a physical wire. When you stream music you want to know exactly where it goes, or e.g. which BT headset is connected to which phone in the room. Pairing can be combined with connecting in a lot of situations though, and I believe the Bluetooth standard, as well as implementations are moving towards simplification. For example, I'd rather have a list of BT audio spea…

I've always thought BT pairing kind of backward - the computer is the 'master' in the protocol; the headset is the 'slave'. But its the headset I have picked up; I know which one I have in my hand, but the computer (iphone/music station) knows about many of them. So I have to select one from a list, and maybe I don't know which one in the list is the one in my hand. MAC address? really. How about vendor string? What if I have two of those? A mess.

Instead, the headset could scan for the computer, select it and voila we're bound.

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#52

Post by mojuba »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #51
mojuba wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pairing is an equivalent of connecting devices with a physical wire. When you stream music you want to know exactly where it goes, or e.g. which BT headset is connected to which phone in the room. Pairing can be combined with connecting in a lot of situations though, and I believe the Bluetooth standard, as well as implementations are moving towards simplification. For example, I'd rather have a list of BT audio spea…

I've always thought BT pairing kind of backward - the computer is the 'master' in the protocol; the headset is the 'slave'. But its the headset I have picked up; I know which one I have in my hand, but the computer (iphone/music station) knows about many of them. So I have to select one from a list, and maybe I don't know which one in the list is the one in my hand. MAC address? really. How about vendor string? What…

True, and actually some cleverly designed BLE devices advertise only for a limited time after pushing a button. I don't see why classic BT devices shouldn't do the same and work (almost) like you described: only advertise for a minute or two when asked to, and shut up for the rest of the time.

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#53

Post by mojuba »

iamshs wrote: post #47
rdrey wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can only be used as "micro-surveillance tools" once you install an app that shares your proximity to a beacon with a remote server... and by installing a 'malicious' app you've already lost.

Yes, an app is required to trigger the surveillance since beacons are one-way, but not really a 'malicious' app install. If tomorrow candy crush/angry birds want to tap into the gimbal database, well congratulations. Worst, if FB/Google want to tap into the database, nearly every android/iOS phone with BLE on will be a target due to their massive app install base.

What about beacons being not so one-way? Assuming you enabled the beacon on your own phone for whatever reason (some fancy app), then information can be gathered easily without you giving permission or noticing at all.

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#54

Post by bennyg »

chrisBob wrote: post #45
bennyg wrote: post #15

As an iOS developer who has spent the last 9 months making beacon enabled things for my employer, I personally think beacons are shit. Some of my findings over the last 9 months: - Estimated battery life was estimated very poorly. - Nobody likes things they didn't ask for getting sent to their phone. - Indoor navigation that relies on iBeacons only is going to shoot you in the foot. I recommend www.indoo.rs as the on…

Is there a specific reason for the coin cell batteries? I would be much happier paying the same amount for something that looks like a AA battery and will last a few years.

I think it's size. Most beacon companies are doing what the phone companies are doing - slimming everything down.

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#55

Post by qzervaas »

nfarina wrote: post #41
mojuba wrote: post #38

I don't know why everyone is talking about pushing ads in the first place, whenever BLE beacons come up. As if the visual clutter created by outdoor advertisement wasn't enough, now I'll get garbage on my phone? No, thanks. Really, No Thanks . As the article mentions, it's not obvious what value iBeacons provide compared to direct audio/visual information. For the same reason QR codes never took off. Ever since QR ca…

I think the technology here is so deceptively simple and generic that it's hard to say what the true killer use case is yet. It's definitely unfortunate that the "ads" examples are the most prevalent. Despite that, I'm betting devs will find cool and novel uses for it.

Public transit is one of the more compelling uses for beacons. If every bus, say, transmitted their vehicle ID you could improve the real-time experiences in third-party apps.

For instance, to precisely know which vehicle you're on when showing arrival estimates or vehicle locations. You can also determine a bunch of other contextually aware info when you know which vehicle a user is on (traffic delays, detours, trackwork, etc)

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#56

Post by nfarina »

mojuba wrote: post #53
iamshs wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, an app is required to trigger the surveillance since beacons are one-way, but not really a 'malicious' app install. If tomorrow candy crush/angry birds want to tap into the gimbal database, well congratulations. Worst, if FB/Google want to tap into the database, nearly every android/iOS phone with BLE on will be a target due to their massive app install base.

What about beacons being not so one-way? Assuming you enabled the beacon on your own phone for whatever reason (some fancy app), then information can be gathered easily without you giving permission or noticing at all.

Absolutely true, but this is also possible with just about every other technology today. "Bad Apps" can report information about Beacons, GPS, or any other sensor on the phone they have access to.

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#57

Post by bennyg »

aflinik wrote: post #42
bennyg wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beacons my company received from you guys must have been out of the norm then. All 3 Estimote beacons are dead, and they all died around the same time (one in super conservative mode, one in what should be a normal use case, and then one in max power mode). I was excited when I saw your indoor SDK, but it's too simplistic and not realistic enough for the production apps we have and are building (walking around an…

Thanks for your feedback! Sorry to hear about faulty beacons, what happened definitely doesn't sound normal. I'd suggest to contact our community team at contact@estimote.com and they're probably able to replace these beacons with new ones. Indoor SDK is still in very early phase, but we're pushing very hard to roll out a series of updates with new features like multiple rooms support, cloud integration and even bett…

Yeah no problem, I'll talk to my director at work to reach out about the beacons since he's been the point of contact with Estimote so far. Thanks for following up and fielding my concerns/criticism. Like I said earlier, I honestly can't wait to see what you guys come out with next in advancing this technology.

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#58

Post by [deleted] »

aflinik wrote: post #18
bennyg wrote: post #15

As an iOS developer who has spent the last 9 months making beacon enabled things for my employer, I personally think beacons are shit. Some of my findings over the last 9 months: - Estimated battery life was estimated very poorly. - Nobody likes things they didn't ask for getting sent to their phone. - Indoor navigation that relies on iBeacons only is going to shoot you in the foot. I recommend www.indoo.rs as the on…

(Disclaimer: I work for Estimote) Indoor location works much better if you utilize data from other sensors in the phone (like accelerometer etc) and apply machine learning to make better sense out of all the signals. I'd suggest you take a look at our SDK that works surprisingly well even with just 4-5 beacons. You can also map your room with our iOS app by just walking around it. You can find it here if you're inter…

[deleted]

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#59

Post by mojuba »

nfarina wrote: post #56
mojuba wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about beacons being not so one-way? Assuming you enabled the beacon on your own phone for whatever reason (some fancy app), then information can be gathered easily without you giving permission or noticing at all.

Absolutely true, but this is also possible with just about every other technology today. "Bad Apps" can report information about Beacons, GPS, or any other sensor on the phone they have access to.

Hm, maybe not so easily with other technologies. GPS is a passive thing and you can select which apps can use it. Beyond that or outside of your phone nobody will be able to register your location.

WiFi is active and yes, wiretapping is possible, at least for locating you. Hardware/software for doing this though is not readily available as far as I can tell.

Finally, iBeacons: very simple software running on a passive BLE device that simply records all BLE UUIDs passing by, that's all!

Re: Let's Talk About Beacons

#60

Post by click170 »

xauronx wrote: post #23
nfarina wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was surprisingly challenging to come up with just those two examples to be honest. I don't think we really know what the killer location-based notifications are going to be yet.

Personally, I really like location-aware app features. My favorite is search suggestions. If I'm in BestBuy and I open the app to the products section, chances are I want more details or reviews on the product I'm standing in front of. Why make me search for it? Have "smart suggestions" The grocery store example is something I've been debating creating for myself. I have a hunch if I stick Estimote stickers underneat…

Because if you're standing there on you're phone, there's more of an opportunity for their sales person to come over and upsell you on their Service Plan.

Think about it from their point of view :)

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