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Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

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Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#161
post #118

At a couple of companies I was at, an Indian jobs shop had somehow gotten their mitts into our HR types and we were indundated with candidates who showed up with books like "Learn Java in 12 hours" or "Windows Device Drivers for N00bs" under their arms. Very junior types, without exception. Our interview questions were fed back, and I had to change them a fair amount. Not a problem. "The guy at XYZZY will ask about h…

My first thought was: I can't image how anyone could work for a place like that. That HR person should have been fired on the spot. My tolerance for bullshit this is quite low and luckily I work for a start-up where I have to take very little of it. When stories like this come up, I keep shaking my head.

Ironically, one of these companies did a product that was HR software. :-)

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#162

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out t…

> Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. I would like to disagree on this point, however I have never conducted any long-term research nor seen any conducted. My anecdotal experiences though definitely seem to indicate otherwise. I think it's first important to clarify that by me making the statement that an H1B is less qualified than the average Americ…

> As graduation nears, he applies for and receives a green card, choosing to permanently reside in the US.

While I understand your point, you are painting too rosy a picture for Shyam. Shyam will not get a green card for 6-13 years[1,2], he will also be on a H1B for all those years. And in my anecdotal experience, he faces a lot of the same prejudice/racism/xenophobia indiscriminately as Deepak in your example. This is not at the Google/Facebook (where likely you only see the Shyams), but at the remaining majority of large tech companies.

[1] depending on EB2 vs EB3, decided by whether he got a PhD/Masters or just a Bachelors from the US. [2] due to the country-of-birth based green card quotas

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#163

"... spending his days at a company apartment in Norcross, Georgia. His first assignment:Wait for Softech to find him a job. After languishing for 10 weeks without work or full-time pay ..." This means free housing and paid unemployment benefit, plus the people paying you are finding you a job themselves. I'm sure there are some Americans who wouldn't mind subscribing to that service. Yes, there's a cost of not quitt…

How about, uh, 10 weeks of lost wages at market value because he could have found another job quicker?

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#164

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out t…

> Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. I would like to disagree on this point, however I have never conducted any long-term research nor seen any conducted. My anecdotal experiences though definitely seem to indicate otherwise. I think it's first important to clarify that by me making the statement that an H1B is less qualified than the average Americ…

Your story for Shyam would be wonderful.. I want the immigration system to work like that!

However, it does not. A university graduate that is looking for an entry level position cannot just request a green card! I have been there, actually. As a graduate from a US university, with good grades, wanting to stay in the US. This is how it actually works. Without at the very least a standing offer, a foreigner can't even apply for the green card. The company has to say they can't find a qualified American, prove that the foreigner is qualified have to wait until the green card is handed out before working there. For a recent graduate that would mean an EB-3. Even if you come from Europe, the wait for that is of years. Nobody will hold the job for that long, so that route is impossible.

So this is what a foreigner with an American CS degree has to do. First he gets an F1 visa, and looks for a company that would sponsor him further. He better hope it's a good fit. In that period, he has to keep the company happy, and then get sponsored for an H1-B. Let's remember that H1-B periods are today open for 1 or 2 days a year, thanks to the H1-B mill companies. Then, once we have the H1-B, the company gets to decide if they want to sponsor for permanent residency. This will take years, and cost tens of thousands of dollars. Only after that, we get back to the position where Shyam is in your story.

I am a pretty good example of the real version of Shyam story. I graduated in 2000 from a US university, and went though the immigration maze while working for a variety of US companies. I got my permanent residency in 2011. I did not go through staffing companies, but many people do, because while it provides a way worse service for your employer, it's far, far safer for the employee. If they get hit by a round of layoffs that says 'effective immediately' while getting that green card, they have to go back home, or stay illegally. The staffing company will not lay them off: they will just not pay them while they hand them another position: For all intents and purposes, they become a shell company that keeps their immigration status safe, in exchange for a very big pay cut.

In my case, there was only one close call, when my first employer lost a big contract for their product, and started doing rounds of layoffs, shrinking their workforce in the US by a factor of 10. When I saw what they were doing (and that I did not share the nationality of the company owners), I got another job 2 weeks before my department received their notice.

So If you want more stories of immigrants that come here and compete honestly, and that you'd want to have on your team, wish for better immigration legislation, because the current system actually promotes your scenario B. The immigrants don't like it either.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If H1Bs were not tied to employers I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit repeated over and over again. Let me say this once: H1B workers are not tied down to a particular employer. It used to be the case that the were , but in 2000, Congress passed a law (known as "AC21") which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happene…

>I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit repeated over and over again. Let me say this once: H1B workers are not tied down to a particular employer. > >It used to be the case that the were, but in 2000, Congress passed a law (known as "AC21") which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again. If you are…

I have a H1B colleague who got laid off several weeks ago and has not been escorted from the country yet, although he is nervous.

(Incidentally, if anyone has opening for an excellent hardware guy willing to relocate to your location in the US, drop me a line.)

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#166
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of how it works in those fields, but as I see it, trying to burden companies with unclear laws and force artificial behavior is what is causing the problem in this case. For example- A large company needs a contractor and is willing to pay $75/hr for 12 months. Option 1- Hires you as a contractor directly for $75/hr on 1099. You get paid well, but if they are not very savvy about independent contractor…

Now the law can be improved to regulate these well understood staffing companies.

There's already plenty of laws to regulate them and they work pretty well for the most part.

The problem is if a large company wants to hire contractors directly- and not use a staffing agency. Thats where the laws are unclear and contractors are the ones paying for it.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#167

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out t…

> Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. I would like to disagree on this point, however I have never conducted any long-term research nor seen any conducted. My anecdotal experiences though definitely seem to indicate otherwise. I think it's first important to clarify that by me making the statement that an H1B is less qualified than the average Americ…

I like your scenarios and I will add to it.

If you are off-shoring or out-sourcing work, you will always get Deepak. But if you are hiring an H1B , you will most likely get Shyam and here is why:

The hiring manager, the one whose project funded the salaries , can easily fire the H1B even more easily. If Deepak shows up when the hiring manager was expecting Shyam, Deepak would get canned in a less than a week.

>If you're an engineer at the top of your game working on some exciting new technology, the last thing you need is to have your project derailed by inefficiencies, bugs, or outright bad actions from someone who is not experienced or qualified enough to be involved, ...then why are you not hiring a local engineer or throwing a hissy fit when Shyam shows up and mucks up your code ? Even the worst mangers I have worked with realize that their own job is at risk when they hire a Deepak.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#169
post #118

At a couple of companies I was at, an Indian jobs shop had somehow gotten their mitts into our HR types and we were indundated with candidates who showed up with books like "Learn Java in 12 hours" or "Windows Device Drivers for N00bs" under their arms. Very junior types, without exception. Our interview questions were fed back, and I had to change them a fair amount. Not a problem. "The guy at XYZZY will ask about h…

Indian here and can confirm some of the agencies do this and is not exactly considered ethically/morally wrong,(am mentioning because some reddit Americans seemed to call it cheating).

In either case, I think this coaching for interview questions is not practical strategy in the long-run. It definitely works in the short-run if you play the numbers game and interview enough number of times.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#170
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government does the same thing to the American students they give "CyberCorps" scholarships to. They have an obligation to remain in government jobs for the same number of years that they received the scholarship for and if they want to leave early they have to repay the scholarship. https://www.sfs.opm.gov/

Same is true for ROTC scholarships and service academy (e.g. West Point) enrollment.

Not really. If one drops out of a service academy or ROTC before the beginning of junior (3rd) year, one owes nothing. Also, the rules about this are spelled out in explicit detail, not just in the fine print in a caveat-emptor kind of way, but to one's face in a way that is impossible to misinterpret. I very highly doubt the same is true for people coming to the US on H1-B visas.

Charging people for company-specific training is exploitative. It's not a charitable act on the company's part; it's necessary to create, maintain, and grow a competent workforce. Also, training is often marketed as compensation, and companies can't have it two ways: it's either compensation or it's not, and if you market it as such then clawing back the "value" of training is as unethical as clawing back the cash you paid the employee for the time they were there.

I've had a few experiences interviewing South Asian guys on H1-B visas where they were trying to game the interview really hard and it was awkward at the time and I was angry after the fact that this person had made it past a phone screen. Reading what life is like for these guys, I'll have a little more empathy next time.

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