How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA • Hacker News Board

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#181

Post by drostie » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:27 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #154

drostie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally really like you and upvote your comments as thoughtful, but in this case I really have to disagree. Eugenics arguments are deeply flawed. They are based on an assumption that the nature-vs-nurture debate is decided firmly in the nature direction, and that assumption is wrong. "[A] point-of-view is worth 80 IQ points. If we're born in 10,000 BC with the IQ of Leonardo [da Vinci]... not a lot is gonna happen…

If you are born poor in America the statistics show that you will stay poor. Despite the belief that there is mobility between classes in the US, that is largely decreasing. Thanks to cutbacks on public schools, a regressive tax system, etc the upward mobility in the US has been steadily decreasing. The parent's point has nothing to do with genes, but rather their hypothesis is that the poor as a % of population in t…

I tried to mention that, but he did explicitly say "eugenics" and it wasn't 100% clear that it was metaphorical.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#182

Post by x0x0 » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:29 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #54

ceejayoz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find the whole notion of "sick days" and accruing them bizarre. Agreed. Companies here in the US are pretty stingy with them, too, causing people to come to work sick where they get everyone else sick too. > What happens if you're sick but don't have enough sick days saved? Are you fired? Stop getting payed? You stop getting paid and can be fired if the company wishes. Some companies are subject to FMLA, which pr…

I really think that a minimum number of sick days should be mandatory as a public health measure. The amount of lost productivity caused by sick people infecting their coworkers per year has to be immense.

A couple years ago a certain im-too-fucking-important-to-take-sick-time asshole biz-dev exec came to work sick as a dog and had literally 2/3 of employees out sick the next week. And thats at a tech company where we had plenty of sick time.

Now think about people who work in restaurants, fast food, or on an ambulance as emts. Most of them have zero paid sick leave. Hell, when we were discussing Jimmy Johns -- a shitty sub shop -- requiring NDAs, it came out that in order for an employee there to take (unpaid!) sick time, he or she must find a replacement first.

Think about that the next time you buy a sandwich: the person making it will come to work, sick or not. Yummy!

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#183

Post by paulhauggis » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #154

drostie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally really like you and upvote your comments as thoughtful, but in this case I really have to disagree. Eugenics arguments are deeply flawed. They are based on an assumption that the nature-vs-nurture debate is decided firmly in the nature direction, and that assumption is wrong. "[A] point-of-view is worth 80 IQ points. If we're born in 10,000 BC with the IQ of Leonardo [da Vinci]... not a lot is gonna happen…

If you are born poor in America the statistics show that you will stay poor. Despite the belief that there is mobility between classes in the US, that is largely decreasing. Thanks to cutbacks on public schools, a regressive tax system, etc the upward mobility in the US has been steadily decreasing. The parent's point has nothing to do with genes, but rather their hypothesis is that the poor as a % of population in t…

There is also less mobility due to increased taxes and regulations. What do you think would happen if we had all of the regulations and taxes people here on HN wanted in place?

Small businesses would go under, it would be increasingly difficult to start a business because of the regulations in place and the only entities left would be large corporations and the government. I guess this is the end goal?

you can still succeed if you are poor. Poor many times comes along with a mindset that will prevent you from succeeding. I grew up with little to no money and built a business from scratch, which can now support my family. Many people I know are still poor. I've tried to help them, but they just don't want to listen.

This used to be the American Dream, but now I just hear complaining by people that are putting little to no effort into bettering themselves. There are tons of jobs out there and houses are at an all-time low, yet many still complain bout both.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#184

Post by lhc- » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #56

ceejayoz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnDi8KlIIAA750F.png US provides zero weeks paid maternity leave. Pakistan provides 12. Venezuela manages 18. Canada does 50. Per Wikipedia, the US joins Papua New Guinea, Suriname, and Liberia as the only countries to not provide paid parental leave of any kind.

Important to note that these are government leave programs. A big problem in the USA is that it is expected that your employer handle this stuff. Here in Canada, the employment insurance system - a payroll-tax-funded program that handles short-term unemployment benefits - also handles parental leave. They offer 4 months for birth mothers and a an additional 8 months for any parent. The money is tiny - something like…

You just listed how the Canadian policy lets the husband take time also (more time, if they want, such as in your case). That suggests that companies would be equally "punished" by hiring men who want families. Why would that policy only harm women's employment options?

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#185

Post by michaelochurch » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

zten wrote: post #125

michaelochurch wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of the Valley and New York, where there's less competition for talent, there are many companies that deduct sick days from vacation. This allows them to say that they offer 15 days (which, by US standards, is about average) of "PTO" in recruiting when it's actually less. When companies pull that shit, you see people getting a lot sicker, because people come into the office when they should be staying home. Th…

I have to use PTO for sick days in SF. Oops.

If you're in SF, you have no excuse not to get out.

Companies that make you use PTO for sick days have given up on playing against the market and are now playing against their employees. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#186

Post by sosborn » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #176

sosborn wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it seems like it's fairly low down in terms of standard of living/worker's rights/healthcare/etc. While this is certainly true when you discuss the bare minimum legal requirements, many employers here go above and beyond the requirements and offer benefits that are equal to what you find in other countries.

The problem is those problem employers are in the majority. The many employers you're thinking of are typically in the STEM fields or highly unionized gov't, manufacturing, transportation industries.

>The many employers you're thinking of are typically in the STEM fields or highly unionized gov't, manufacturing, transportation industries.

Not trying to start an argument, but do you have any sources for this? I work for an independent school and my benefits are fantastic.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#187

Post by seestheday » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:38 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #92

Is this the difference between working in academia and working at a large corporation? Most of the large companies I worked for had 12 weeks paid vacation and then you could do an additional 12 weeks which wasn't paid for the primary care giver. Otherwise, as a non-primary, you still got 2 weeks paid. Also, I remember several female sales people abusing the system pretty well. They'd get within a month or so of their…

As a parent from Canada I feel so sorry for parents in the US.

That you consider only 12 weeks as "abuse" is even more depressing.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#188

Post by x0x0 » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:44 PM UTC

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #155

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For large companies the minimum number of sick days should be the number of days for which a doctor verifies you are unfit to work through illness. Such companies who also have morals will make allowances for a certain number of uncertified days of illness (you don't get a doctor's note for flu, going in to work when you're too weak to stand up and can barely concentrate long enough to take meds; or going to work and…

> The USA looks less and less like a democracy _for_ the people the more I learn about it. It's what people get when they come up with their own fancy interpretation of the meaning of the word "freedom". Enjoy a lot of individualism? Well, better be prepared to live with the consequences. N.B.: I grew up under communist dictatorship, so I know the other extreme too. Both are pernicious.

Like Bill Hicks used to say, "You think you're free? OK. Try doing anything without money, then you'll see how free you are."

Also, the vast majority of americans don't actually enjoy any individuality; what they actually love is running their mouths right up to the second they need major medical treatment. Then the whining starts.

A couple years ago I read an amazing interview that I wish I'd kept. During the great recession there was some parent out of work receiving TANF (food stamps) from the government so that he and his wife and kids could eat. And just so it's clear, I can't think of a better use of my tax dollars than making sure all people, particularly kids, have enough to eat. Yet he was busy complaining about how they (and no prize for guessing who they is; some lazy black eating t-bone steaks) was abusing food stamps while he was getting what he deserved. All the while he was eating my tax dollars. It was one of the few times I'd ever sympathized with Republican's needs to embarrass those getting help from the government. I wanted a flashing red sign to go off when this guy bought groceries with food stamps so maybe he'd stop shitting on other people doing the same. Though perhaps some people in life just need someone below them so they can tell themselves that no matter what, they're better than X.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#189

Post by kefka » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #177

kefka wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would correct what you said. That policy punishes the company of hiring any fertile woman. My dad used to hire for a large engineering department. One of the things he had to keep in mind is that if a woman is hired, they can leave pretty much at any time due to FMLA, and hiring someone else is not feasible (due to law). The simple result is if he were given a choice between a man and woman of equal capacity, he wo…

Even when you extend the rights to the man, there's still the traditional cultural expectations will end up with the leave on the mother. I mean, I'm a liberal stereotype and we didn't split the parental leave until our third kid - we went the traditional way for the first 2. So even in the optimal "extend rights to both" we still have the problem that the female employee took leave and the male one didn't. We can re…

But, shouldn't that choice be within the family, rather than government applying uneven pressure for the female to "mother"?

It may be the case with my wife and I as well. We've discussed it, and whoever makes more per 2 weeks will be the one to continue work. But we'd both want that choice to be our own.

And also to be more specific, my dad was Wilbur Crawley. Worked at Faurecia, and was over 50+ engineers in an automotive setting. After being burnt by 2 engineers he brought on, whom were women, both within 2 years were pregnant. Cool, none of his concern, until they FMLA'd and were out for about a year each.

Both projects they were put in charge of were scrapped as the projects themselves had one less person (leaving 2 engineers). They were beaten to market on one of them and the other one fizzled as the engineers were reassigned.

And this also goes back to male vs. female salary issues too. Do women get paid as well as men, given the appropriate experience level? The main source I know of has bad controls. But, the more I think regarding this, what is the cost of FMLA with regard to women?

Is Salary_man == Salary_woman + FMLA_cost ? Ugly indeed.

Re: How My Employer Put the “FML” in FMLA

#190

Post by eli » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #173

eli wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Myself and all the feminists I know are definitely in favor of paternity leave. I'm having a hard time imagining an argument against it.

I'm for it, but it's harder to legislate. What if the father and the spouse are different people? What if someone meets and moves in with an already pregnant woman? What there isn't a spouse/SO but a live-in grandmother would want time off to perform similar functions? It will be a challenge to both accommodate diverse family situations and make sure all newborns and mothers are properly cared for.

I don't think that's a relevant argument. The FMLA already defines fatherhood and provides paternity leave -- it just suffers from all the many restrictions and drawbacks as the maternity leave that are highlighted in the article.

A policy that works and feels fair for EVERY possible family situation is probably not possible. Shouldn't stop us from trying to improve things for most people.