Tim Cook Speaks Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#441

Post by Torgo » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:51 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #201

wozniacki wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. However there is the Nick Denton school of thought. Denton ( of Gawker Media ) routinely shames public personalities for being clandestine about their sexuality. The rationale for doing so is such that if no one calls them out, that the worldviews these public personalities profess never get the perspective, those views deserve. The backdrop of the person's sexuality and the influence it had on the shaping of t…

My impression was that Denton mostly does that with people who essentially work to oppress gay people (right-wing politicians, Fox journalists, and so on and so forth), and, yeah, I'm fine with that. For people who aren't doing anything particularly wrong, though, especially those in positions where being openly gay is severely against the norm (as with Cook, who is, I believe, the first openly gay Fortune 500 CEO _e…

Deciding that you can in fact out other people in some circumstances confirms that the enlightened claims of individual ownership of sexual identity are a political fiction. If it's deemed a person is "hypocritical" then you feel free to socially assign a label to that person's sexuality. "Outing" is only possible if society decides someone is "gay," not the person.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#442

Post by newscracker » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:51 PM UTC

broodbucket wrote: post #4

Being in such a progressive community (i.e. young nerdy people), it's easy to forget that this is an enormous deal for some people. A friend of mine recently came out as transgender and the general response was "oh, cool, good for you". It's hard to fathom what it's like for people who aren't in such a supportive environment. There are undoubtedly many people who will no longer purchase Apple products because of this…

If some people don't want to buy Apple products because of this, that would be a foolish choice. What may be worse than that would be some people trying to color everything Apple makes with this background and attempting to denigrate the products with "jokes" that aren't.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#443

Post by jp_sc » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:52 PM UTC

blktiger wrote: post #355

coke12 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a hard time thinking of anyone as Christian if they ignore the basic tenants of what the Bible says. You can be an adulterer and a Christian. You can commit any sin imaginable and still consider yourself a Christian. Homosexuality is no different.

There is a difference though between commiting a sin then admitting you were wrong and actively promoting a lifestyle that espouses sin. I'd have the same problem with an adulterer who didn't think that their adultery was wrong. In one case, someone messed up - in the other someone is actually ignoring the bible entirely.

You can believe the christianity idea of "God" but not in the bible as its "word" at the same time. In fact, you can believe in anything at all and still talk about "God". An it would be still valid.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#444

Post by leejoramo » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

> When I arrive in my office each morning, I’m greeted by framed photos of Dr. King and Robert F. Kennedy.

Personally, I was struck as much or more by this statement. This certainly does not follow the standard political & business script that we are force feed in the USA. I look forward to hearing more from Cook speaking to social issues.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#445

Post by courtf » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

linguafranca wrote: post #353

GuiA wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you will possibly be downvoted, but not because your opinion dissents with the majority. There are plenty of dissenting opinions on HN who get upvoted to the top, as long as they're well argued and informed. You will be downvoted because your comment has no substance to it. The only claim you make is "we know that homosexuality is a destructive force in society", and it isn't backed up by any meaningful conversa…

The self-evident fact that homosexuality is contrary to nature should be sufficient substance.

A casual examination of nature would demonstrate your statement to be false. Your statements are both extreme and unfounded, which is a curious state to start from when you have very little objective information about a topic.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#446

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #380

thenmar wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away. Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support w…

Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions. And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, be…

> by using underpaid overworked labor

Underpaid in what way? Are there many other jobs those people could be doing which pay them better? They're not paid much by US standards but the alternative is subsistence level farming. Is anyone who puts their production into China (and let's remember that's basically everyone in hardware before we single out Apple) being nasty by offering people a better income than they can get anywhere else?

It's the market rate, something incidentally most people in tech in the West are pretty happy about when it's driving massively above average salaries for programmers and the like.

In terms of overworked - Foxcon workers recently went on strike because the amount of overtime they were being offered had been reduced. If they're overworked it would be very odd behaviour to strike to demand more.

Essentially Foxcon workers get to choose between two things - a shitty life working at Foxcon and a really shitty life not working there. That's unfortunate, but it's not Tim Cook's fault, it's in part the fault of the Chinese government, in part the result of them having been dealt a shitty hand and a consequence of global capitalism which most of us are in some way complicit in.

To place this at the door of Cook is pretty naive.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#447

Post by gfodor » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

dwild wrote: post #379

angersock wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Sure there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion but it's wrong to hurt other people based on an opinion (in this case he hurt them by limiting their right).

Donating money to support a campaign on a proposition supported by 52% of voters is not 'hurting people', and saying so is hyperbolic and ridiculous.

The reality is that the gay rights movement did not have the unprecedented swiftness it did by alienating those who feel differently about homosexuality. It traditionally has been a movement predicated on the idea that people who didn't support gay rights could be converted if they could only be reached in the proper context. The effectiveness of this approach speaks for itself.

It's a shame and an embarrassment that people think it's appropriate or rational behavior to do what was done to Eich. If that type of behavior was the common reaction to someone who, privately I might add, had opinions counter to the movement then we would have been set back decades.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#448

Post by dreamweapon » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #395

dreamweapon wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an incredibly muddle-headed sequence of arguments you've just made, for sure. But no, we're not going to hate you for it.

Your inability to respond to any of the points has been noted.

Oh, I'm "able." I just don't find them particularly interesting, or worth responding to in detail.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#449

Post by alexbecker » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #235

I am incredibly grateful to Cook for this, not least because of how it will affect young gay people. When I was a child, I felt generally good about myself. I was reasonably smart, well-spoken, curious, and so on, and I wanted to do something important with my life. Some nagging part of me suspected I was gay from very early on, but I resisted it intensely. I wasn't really afraid of being mistreated, although I proba…

I'm not sure Apple is "the most admirable company", or even in the running.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#450

Post by jshevek » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

Kudos wrote: post #139

DanBC wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where the homesexual agenda in Disney movies? I'd prefer specific examples rather than just handwavey nonsense.

> homesexual agenda Agenda? People only use that term when they're trying to imply something is somehow pushing homosexuality on the weak minded.

>> Agenda? People only use that term when they're trying to imply something is somehow pushing homosexuality on the weak minded.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Most individuals have agendas, and all organizations have (or should have) agendas.

We should all be able to talk honestly about various agendas without having to toe some manipulative lines concerning presumed hidden meanings.

Just because many homophobes, rightwingers, etc constantly harp on the 'homosexual agenda' as if its some scary monster, doesn't mean that LGBT rights organizations don't have agendas.