These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…
Huxely's mechanisms of Soma, infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis feel less real. Marijuana legalization is Soma. We don't need as many workers any more, and pot will help to keep the drones passive.
1984 v. Brave New World
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Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#92It would be better if we focus our energy on how we can help fix that before it's too late.
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Huxely's mechanisms of Soma, infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis feel less real. Marijuana legalization is Soma. We don't need as many workers any more, and pot will help to keep the drones passive.
This is wrong. In the book Soma is described to have roughly the positive effects of alcohol, without the negative consequences.
Soma is described as being able to take a few grams and experience an eternity of time within a few hours. It sounds more like an intense psychedelic.
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#94Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#95At the time of this letter, Aldous Huxley was very into 'Animal Magnetism' and Hypnotism (read his novel 'Island' to see his utopian vision for such things). He seems to somewhat overrate their potence. 65 years later Animal Magnetism is long forgotten and hypnotism is slightly helpful for giving up smoking or being a bit less angry. I feel sorry for past thinkers who could only stumble upon ideas from books and dige…
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#96Sadly, we are learning this is not an either-or proposition: it's perfectly logical that some elements of society will seek to narcoticize us while others worry about increasing our surveillance and control. And the worst part? Both of these elements do these things because we ask them to.
Support transparency. Support sunset clauses (continue to justify a thing is necessary). Support full accountability.
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Upvoted for Century of Self. Everyone in the industrialized world should watch it. Although I will add that Freud's theories are only one part of it. The documentary really exposes a vast plethora of social control techniques.
Agreed - Century of Self is fantastic. Along the same lines as Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". The book is great, and there's a documentary from 92: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzufDdQ6uKg
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#98The legitimately dystopian part of Brave New World are often technical in nature—effectively mind control through drugs and a caste system propped up by genetic engineering. These don't just require advances in technology but also a surprising level of social organization. Where 1984 feels like a continuous progression from a Soviet Union that never collapsed, these core parts of Brave New World comes of as discontinuous, a jump both socially and technically.
And without these extreme social and technical changes, it stops being a dystopia. If not for the eugenics, genetics and soma, it sounds like a nice place to live! Freer sex, freer entertainment, more automation, more leisure... It's radical, certainly, but not in a bad way—a radical departure from our current almost Puritan work ethic and our obsession with certain abstractions (the poorly defined "real vs superficial", "honor", "the dignity of work"¹...etc) sounds like just what we need.
I like giving people what they want, even if I think it's shallow or superficial. Then again, I've never been one to treat hedonism as a bad word.
That cartoon people like to pass around really captures my thoughts—in a way that's opposite to its intended message! It shows how some of the believable things in Brave New World are believable, but never shows why they're bad. It just assumes, and ties into cultural ideas (like "hard work is good" or "your life must have meaning") that many people don't question. But it misses the mark because it ignores the parts that are not plausible but actually created the dystopian environment.
The cartoon (much more than the book itself) is also a bit grating because I sense some condescending overtones. "Look at all those people who don't care about the world but just distract themselves with popular entertainment. How shallow!" Obviously you, the reader, do not belong to this group. And hey, I don't disagree per se—I think most popular distractions are shallow and have much better alternatives—but I also think there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying them. I mean, I follow the news, I care about recent events and where does it get me? Nowhere. I guess I could vote² a bit better, but all it's done is sour me on all major candidates. Is this meaningfully better than comfortable ignorance? No, but people tell me it is. And here I am.
Really, Brave New World minus the implausible bits and with a larger dash of individual freedom thrown in is pretty much as far from dystopian as it can get. Radical, certainly, and jarring—very different from our current social order—but fundamentally good. It feels like it's just a few exaggerated risks thrown in to make leisure and entertainment seem crass and indolent. 1984, on the other hand, doesn't feel all that different from my parents' tales about the Soviet Union.
I know which one I'm more afraid of!
footnotes
¹ I've always really disliked this phrase. It's one part rationalization and one part a way to keep people down and working even if they don't want to. Doing something menial or boring or easily automatable just for the sake of working is not my picture of dignity!
² Haha, no I can't, because I'm not a citizen. So I'd have to become a citizen first. It doesn't matter, but it is annoying.
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#99Something I realized only recently regarding Brave New World and 1984 : the former is a criticism of its own society, that is, Western commercialism, capitalism, entertainment, and escapism. The latter is a criticism of the other society, that is, Soviet Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist Communism. From the point of view that criticism of your own enemy is often far easier to swallow than criticism of yourself, it isn't qui…
What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny ‘failed to take into account man’s almost infinite appetite for distractions.’ In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.
This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.
Re: 1984 v. Brave New World
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Brave New World is satire. It's _supposed_ to be over the top.
Satire is humorous in mind. Edit: Maybe It is funny if you get the message and I just don't get the kind of dark humor, though.