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When Women Stopped Coding

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Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#91

Post by Pxtl »

3rd3 wrote: post #25
nathan_long wrote: post #2

This story makes a compelling case that women stopped programming because - 1. Computers started being sold as consumer products - 2. They were marketed almost exclusively to boys - 3. Boys played with computers and learned about them, while girls were made to feel that computers weren't for them - 3. Men showed up to college with more computer experience - 4. Women felt they must not be "naturally good" at computers…

This seems to miss an explanation for why the marketing was directed at boys in the first place.

Seems fairly self-evident - personal computers grew out of the electronic hobbyist industry. The first home PCs were kits for Radio Shack geeks. The PC market was firmly established as a split-off from the electronics-geek market until the early '90s or so.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#92

Post by JoshTriplett »

filereaper wrote: post #46
orionhenry wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming has been a hell of a gateway drug for programming.

I concur. I got into programming because I couldn't complete a level in a game, and I resorted to cheat-codes and hacks. First it was the missing-no hack in Pokemon, then getting the console for "sv_cheats 1/god/impulse 101/noclip" for Half-Life and then rules.ini for the Red Alert series. Hand hacking rules.ini for Red-Alert made a massive impression, any of the game's dynamics could be altered, you could spew out u…

> I got into programming because I couldn't complete a level in a game, and I resorted to cheat-codes and hacks.

While I programmed long before then, that's certainly the reason I started poking at hex editors, and why I remember off the top of my head that 0x63 is 99 and 0x64 is 100.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#93

Post by jamesaguilar »

wyager wrote: post #82
jamesaguilar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He posted a link to an n-gram search, which is like me posting a picture of a flower to prove that the sky is blue. The data cited is not germane to the quesiton. To wit: one would expect that n-gram search to look the same whether or not data processing was a CS subdiscipline, because data processing dropped in relevance as digital systems became the primary source of truth. Therefore, it is not evidence either way…

Fair enough. But if we're trying to stay relevant to the argument, it would be best to avoid attacks on (perhaps questionable) character.

This is only really true in a purely logical argument. In rational arguments, like the one we're having now, source does affect posterior expectation. That is, someone of unimpeachable character and a history of reliability saying "F" ought to increase your posterior expectation that F. Conversely, someone with deeply questionable character and reliability will affect your posterior expectation of F much less, or perhaps even decreasing the expectation if you sense a motive for skewing the truth.

The source does matter. It is not irrelevant, nor is it an "attack" in the traditional sense to offer evidence that the source might be lying or misguided.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#94

Post by nostromo »

nathan_long wrote: post #2

This story makes a compelling case that women stopped programming because - 1. Computers started being sold as consumer products - 2. They were marketed almost exclusively to boys - 3. Boys played with computers and learned about them, while girls were made to feel that computers weren't for them - 3. Men showed up to college with more computer experience - 4. Women felt they must not be "naturally good" at computers…

"They were marketed almost exclusively to boys"

You mean exactly like chemistry sets? Yet chemistry is the most equal major in terms of gender of graduates.

I like Planet Money, but this story is unconvincing.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#95

Post by spion »

3rd3 wrote: post #67
spion wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take on that missing piece: once computers went personal / homebrew / RadioShack they switched categories. The new category was "tinkering with electronics", which has a long established cultural perception of being a male activity (and those personal computers were therefore marketed to males)

But why is tinkering almost exclusively for men?

That, I don't know. We'd probably need to go much further back to find an answer.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#96

Post by fnordsensei »

ElComradio wrote: post #65
inmygarage wrote: post #21

I am a female born in 1983 and have always been deeply interested in computers, but have nonetheless felt inexplicably out of place for it. I was in advanced math classes my entire life and placed out of calculus in college. I took a summer programming class at a different university in 2000 and fell in love with programming. But when I got back to school, I took another CS class that was exactly as described in this…

That's too bad. I wish things were easy for you, like they were for me, when my peers were cheering me on to learn how to program and I was super popular because of it. Everything was a cake walk, and I learned that if society is in the slightest way against what you are doing, it's impossible to accomplish, so I'm really glad I wasn't driven out of the field that interested me.

Belittling another person for their experiences in the manner you just did comes across as arrogant and insensitive.

First of all, if you have something to say, say it plainly instead of wrapping it up in passive agressive bullshit.

Secondly, when you've stripped it of outward bullshit and realized how pointless it is, consider not posting it at all.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#97

Post by tambourmajor »

3rd3 wrote: post #25
nathan_long wrote: post #2

This story makes a compelling case that women stopped programming because - 1. Computers started being sold as consumer products - 2. They were marketed almost exclusively to boys - 3. Boys played with computers and learned about them, while girls were made to feel that computers weren't for them - 3. Men showed up to college with more computer experience - 4. Women felt they must not be "naturally good" at computers…

This seems to miss an explanation for why the marketing was directed at boys in the first place.

The best explanation I've come across so far is Roy Baumeister's Is There Anything Good About Men? [0], which explains gender determinisms by regarding the evolutionary history of our species. The article was already posted several times on HN [1].

[0]: http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

[1]: http://hn.algolia.com/#!/story/forever/prefix/0/Is%20There%2...

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#98

Post by anigbrowl »

zxcv731 wrote: post #14

This same graph used in the article was extensively discussed on reddit 3 days ago. [1] I want to quote some of the comments, which I think is extremely important to this discussion. " The far simpler answer is that the 1970's "explosion" of women into the (purported) field of "computer science" was largely women obtaining degrees in (what were then "computer science" courses) the subfields of "Data Processing" and l…

Degrees in data entry and word processing? This needs more substantiation than 'my grandma had one.'

Edit: I followed up on that after getting back to the house and I did find some community colleges that offered certificates in word processing and business information systems (which could include data entry), some which might count for credit towards an associate degree. But I remain skeptical that such vocational qualifications were ever the basis of a full degree, or that such qualifications were formerly treated as synonymous with the study of computer science.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#99

Post by brandonmenc »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #68
brandonmenc wrote: post #3

> And these toys were marketed almost entirely to men and boys. They give two piddly links to commercials aimed at boys. Explain these ads, then: http://minotaurproject.co.uk/blog/?p=342 Or Commodore ads like this one: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1325832/commodore-765.jpg In the 80s, computers were marketed to the whole family, boys and girls included.

So your two piddly links trump their two piddly links? Less flippantly, the larger point they were making rings true to me -- speaking as someone who, like one of the interviewees, got the initial push toward computers by hanging out at Radio Shack in the late '70s. Hobbyist electronics was mostly guys, and companies knew that. Microcomputers, back in the day we actually called them "microcomputers," came out of the…

> So your two piddly links trump their two piddly links?

My first link includes more than one ad featuring girls.

They cited two advertisements and interviews with "hundreds" of students trying to recall why their parents bought computers.

If you're going to make the bold claim that computers "were marketed almost entirely to men and boys," then you've got to present some data on the marketing of the time. Especially when there are counter examples to the claim.

Even something like, "here are ten thousand computer ads from the 80s and boys outnumber girls by a significant margin" would work.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#100

Post by onewaystreet »

crusso wrote: post #80
nathan_long wrote: post #2

This story makes a compelling case that women stopped programming because - 1. Computers started being sold as consumer products - 2. They were marketed almost exclusively to boys - 3. Boys played with computers and learned about them, while girls were made to feel that computers weren't for them - 3. Men showed up to college with more computer experience - 4. Women felt they must not be "naturally good" at computers…

"They were marketed almost exclusively to boys" Back before anyone was really marketing computers in any mainstream way, I remember gathering around the few that were available in the school library or in a math teacher's classroom. The only people interested EVER were boys. It had nothing to do with marketing.

You say "ever" but the early history of computing was filled with women. Something caused a change.
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