I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#191

Post by reverius42 » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:36 PM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #169

reverius42 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take offense at your gross misconceptions. JavaScript is by no means an "easy" language, certainly not orders of magnitude easier than whatever it is you do. The skills of a "JavaScript developer" include combining object-oriented and functional design patterns to organize a codebase, efficiently managing asynchronous communication and state, profiling and optimizing rendering and execution performance across the C…

JavaScript can be used to do complex things. A "copy-and-paste JavaScript" developer, as I referenced above, is someone who can create web pages that have simple actions, but who doesn't do much original development. The language certainly doesn't define the programmer. I also use JavaScript on occasion; I wasn't trying to paint all JavaScript developers with the same brush. It sounds like what you do is NOT what I'm…

Fair enough. I think what we do is probably pretty similar, the difference being that I do it mostly in JavaScript.

Perhaps there is something to your point -- I doubt there are nearly as many successful "copy and paste C++ developers" (although I have met at least one). It might be harder to cobble together even a barely-working piece of software from StackOverflow C++ posts.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#192

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:37 PM UTC

Maken wrote: post #155

rdtsc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then I discovered quicksort, and graph search, and Bayesian inference, and Dijkstra, and Karatsuba. I would guess most "discovered" those because they had to interview. The % of programmers who need to Karatsuba or Bayesian inference to finish their project is very much smaller than the % of programmers who thought "oh shit, I better learn this because Google and Facebook keep asking about graph theory". It it is p…

I don't get why people tend to think that computer science is something different from "actual programming". In the end everything you can program can be expressed formally and vice-versa, the only thing that changes is how much you abstract from the actual implementation, which is handy in order to catch defects in the approach you are taking to certain problem.

It's not the subject matter per se, it's the difference in habits and typical incentives for people who identify more with one description or the other.

For many products and businesses, it's not really necessary to avoid long-term dead-ends (say 3-5 years) if you can be much more effective in the short-term (say 3-12 months). So a high up-front cost (required knowledge and planning / research experience) approach often loses out to simply banging out more code, which requires little CS knowledge.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#193

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:41 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #163

Maken wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why people tend to think that computer science is something different from "actual programming". In the end everything you can program can be expressed formally and vice-versa, the only thing that changes is how much you abstract from the actual implementation, which is handy in order to catch defects in the approach you are taking to certain problem.

The difference between computer science and programming is analogous to the difference between physics and architecture.

I'd say fluid-dynamics and plumbing. Most businesses really just want us to connect this to that and not have the shit back up. If you can deliver that quickly, without much analysis, and without fuss than you're very effective for many business and product types.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#194

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:43 PM UTC

general_failure wrote: post #66

panarky wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time I was a programmer, building CRUD apps for enterprises. I hated puzzles, too. Then I discovered quicksort, and graph search, and Bayesian inference, and Dijkstra, and Karatsuba. I'm still a programmer, but now I love puzzles, too.

Algorithms and puzzles are different things. If I asked someone what is an algorithm and they replied 'it's a puzzle where you solve...", I would laugh my ass off.

Would you disqualify a candidate based on that one data point? If so, I think you're missing good hires, and not in some false-negative preferred to false-positive way.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#195

Post by ecdavis » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:49 PM UTC

fullofcrap wrote: post #14

smacktoward wrote: post #9

> I’ve been programming for 18 years now. Then congratulations, you are a programmer! Despite what you'll hear from people peddling various flavors of Kool-Aid, "programmer" isn't a personality type. It's a job description. If you program, you are a programmer, end of line, full stop. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

I think there are categories, and we haven't figured out what to call them yet or how to define them. I see archetypes emerging over the years, and patterns. I've worked with career programmers that are done at 5:00pm, and never crack a book. They work fine in their niche, and when layoff come, they're working tech support. I know others that love problems but can't seem to make their ideas become manifest, yet kludg…

> done at 5:00pm

I really don't like this euphemism. When I read this I know what you mean[0] but I wish this meaning wasn't tied to leaving the office at 5pm. If someone's effective in their role, why should they be judged on what time they leave? This mentality doesn't encourage people to work harder or be better employees, it only encourages them to stay later. That eats into their free time every day, giving them less opportunity to relax and recharge and probably causing them to become less productive and more prone to burnout in the long run.

If I can get my job done by 4pm every day then don't force me to sit at my desk until 6pm to keep up appearances. Either let me go home or help me fill my time by offering me more work (and if I'm highly productive, more compensation).

[0] The person is only putting in the bare minimum effort, has no interest in personal development, is more interested in the paycheck than craftsmanship and professionalism, etc.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#196

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:54 PM UTC

austinz wrote: post #120

I hate "puzzle" questions where there's a single insight with which the problem becomes trivial, without which the problem is unsolvable, and it's a tossup whether or not you'll come across it in the 30-60 minutes you spend in a room with the interviewer. I do enjoy questions where there the path to the goal isn't immediately obvious, but there are immediately a couple of approaches to consider, and even though the p…

[deleted]

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#197

Post by geekam » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:54 PM UTC

Oh lord, I could not have read this ata more apt time. I am going through such a crisis right now, professionally. I keep interviewing at these places where they just want to know if I can solve 9 ball problems or not. I almost feel like an impostor. Glad I read this.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#198

Post by vacri » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:56 PM UTC

The discussion here is far more interesting than the article. "I don't like jigsaw puzzles, therefore I'm not supposed to be good as a programmer"? "Facebook and Google aren't looking for people like me, therefore I'm not supposed to be good as a programmer"? It seems to be intentionally narrowing the definition in order to make a somewhat whiny point.

What I like about programming is not problem solving — it’s design. How do I design an application in such a way that people will understand it?

Or, to put it another way, 'what I like about programming is not problem solving, it's problem solving'. The author somehow distorted the term 'problem solving' into 'puzzle solving'. Improving the usability of something is solving a problem. The author is tilting at windmills.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#199

Post by nightmiles » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 8:58 PM UTC

bmh100 wrote: post #190

computerjunkie wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. >>> I don't have a GitHub page, nor do I have an interest in having one. Glad I'm not the only one. >>> I don't care about hackathons or solving puzzles. Couldn't have been said any better. I never produce anything good when its tightly timed, under pressure, when people are watching over you. >>> I hate the term 'nerd' or 'geek'. I am neither and I find the terms insulting. Add "ninja", "guru", "rockstar" a…

I see this comment about "nerd", "geek", "ninja", etc. crop up a lot. These are solutions to the problem of "what term do we used to describe an excellent programmer, that both excellent programmers will identify with and other managers will emotionally relate to"? How would you solve that problem?

Why do we need to give programmers such punchy titles? I haven't heard anyone doing this in any other craft. In my view, calling someone a good, great, excellent, skilled, or top programmer as appropriate is more than adequate.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#200

Post by rodgerd » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:00 PM UTC

silverbax88 wrote: post #39

smacktoward wrote: post #9

> I’ve been programming for 18 years now. Then congratulations, you are a programmer! Despite what you'll hear from people peddling various flavors of Kool-Aid, "programmer" isn't a personality type. It's a job description. If you program, you are a programmer, end of line, full stop. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

This. So much this. I'm a programmer who loves 'building the brain'. I've been coding professionally for about 16 years. I've written some code I'm really proud of. A couple of specific pieces of code are actually used in a LOT of major websites you probably use. Like almost every health care site or major retailer site. I actually find most code written by 'whiz' startups - even successful ones - to be incredibly si…

I wish I had more than one upvote to give.

I work with a bunch of smart programmers who would, by the "if you aren't a 12 year old coder and you don't spend all your free time buffing your github profile" metric that pops up on HN, be unemployable. They are deeply, deeply clever people who speak assembler like a second language (or understand the bits of the JVM that most people don't think about, or what have you). They have lives outside their job.