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Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

ind.ie

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Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#71

Post by beltex »

"Guys, feel free to make up your own dragons if you want, but your speculation is just that: speculation. We literally have not even discussed this yet, because we have a ton of work to do to respond to the huge volume of feedback we're getting, and have to get a huge number of things (e.g. access control!) done before the 1.0 release this fall. You can imagine that many of us want it to be open source and part of llvm, but the discussion hasn't happened yet, and won't for some time.

Sorry to leave you all hanging, but there is just far too much to deal with right now.

-Chris"

http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2014-June/073698....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Lattner

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#72

Post by austinz »

chc wrote: post #43
3JPLW wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. > "You can imagine that many of us want [Swift] to be open source and part of llvm, but the discussion hasn't happened yet, and won't for some time." - Chris Lattner, LLVMDev mailing list. http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2014-June/073698....

This is strange. You just quoted Chris Lattner saying Apple has no intention of making it open-source, but said it makes me wrong. Indeed, he confirmed that it hadn't even been considered at that time.

> I don't see how you can possibly take this "We haven't even talked about it and I can't say when we will" as a declaration that Swift will be open-sourced.

I never, ever said Swift was going to be open-sourced. My only point is that, despite whatever circumstantial evidence you've cited, Apple has not decided that they don't want Swift to be open sourced.

> Also, he said they have stuff to do before the release this fall. That happened, and still not a word about it.

The fall "release" was incomplete - it didn't ship with Swift support for OS X. Presumably they've been spending the time between the fall release of Xcode 6.0 and 6.1 (which came out yesterday) working on finishing the language. Even before 6.0 was officially released they were already releasing developer previews of 6.1.

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#73

Post by aaronbrethorst »

krschultz wrote: post #34
MCRed wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems likely. It's not like objective-c is closed to other people, and the extensions to Objective-C that Apple has made are open. Swift and Objective-C are based on LLVM, which Apple has supported since very early on, and which is open sourced itself. It would be kinda out of character for Apple (the real Apple not the boogeyman Apple which is mostly a straw man) to not release a programming language as open source.…

A lot more than just the UI layer is closed source. Where is the Core Data source?

    Where is the Core Data source?
I'm pretty sure it's sealed in a wooden box—right next to the Ark of the Covenant—in that warehouse you see at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

* Core Data uses exceptions for control flow: http://restkit.tumblr.com/post/40736602228/dealing-with-core...

* "iCloud with Core Data is a developer’s worst nightmare" http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/26/4148628/why-doesnt-icloud-...

* Apple's documentation is a joke: http://thermal-core.com/2013/09/07/in-defense-of-core-data-p...

* The object graph model is a problematic abstraction for a lot of what we want to do with a persistence framework: http://inessential.com/2010/02/26/on_switching_away_from_cor... (NSBatchUpdateRequest doesn't do me much good since I can't drop support for iOS 7.x, or 6.x for that matter, yet)

I could go on, but you get the idea...

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#74

Post by chc »

mcphage wrote: post #70
chc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is strange. You just quoted Chris Lattner saying Apple has no intention of making it open-source, but said it makes me wrong. Indeed, he confirmed that it hadn't even been considered at that time.

Your statement: > Nobody at Apple has expressed any intention to make Swift free. Zero. Zip. Chris Lattner: > "You can imagine that many of us want [Swift] to be open source and part of llvm" So Chris Lattner (who works for Apple) has stated that he, and many others at Apple, want to make it open source. I'm not sure what else you're looking for.

I want a Tesla. Based on me saying this, do you think that I'm definitely going to buy a Tesla? Well, I am not, because I haven't got the money.

A statement of personal desire on the part of one individual is different from a statement of intention or interest on the part of Apple. Lattner specifically says alongside his personal desire that they haven't even considered open-sourcing Swift.

So what am I looking for? A statement to the effect that Apple will open-source Swift.

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#75

Post by norcimo5 »

jagger27 wrote: post #46
steve918 wrote: post #13

They should really come up with a better name. Phoenix is over used and even in open-source has a long history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox

Seriously. Unfortunately OpenSwift appears to be taken [0]. It would have been the obvious choice. [0] http://sourceforge.net/projects/openswift/

How about "Veloces" (Latin for 'swift")?

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#76

Post by GeorgeMac »

GeorgeMac wrote: post #60

Just a shout to say, if you believe in what the ind.ie guys are doing, then please sign their manifesto: https://ind.ie/about/manifesto/ It's time we valued our privacy one again.

Just to confirm why I posted this. Due to receiving a down vote. Phoenix is a component of http://ind.ie and the movement they are trying to create. User experience driven design/technology, which empowers individuals to remain connected, while protecting their privacy and freedoms.

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#77

Post by chc »

austinz wrote: post #72
chc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is strange. You just quoted Chris Lattner saying Apple has no intention of making it open-source, but said it makes me wrong. Indeed, he confirmed that it hadn't even been considered at that time.

> I don't see how you can possibly take this "We haven't even talked about it and I can't say when we will" as a declaration that Swift will be open-sourced. I never, ever said Swift was going to be open-sourced. My only point is that, despite whatever circumstantial evidence you've cited, Apple has not decided that they don't want Swift to be open sourced. > Also, he said they have stuff to do before the release thi…

Like so many people in this thread, you have taken what I said, which is quite simple, and twisted it into something bizarre. I'm simply saying that Apple has not expressed any intention to open-source Swift. Because of this, I think taking it for granted is overly optimistic.

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#78

Post by steele »

steve918 wrote: post #13

They should really come up with a better name. Phoenix is over used and even in open-source has a long history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox

https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix

Another rising technology with a similar name. This phoenix is set to be the Rails for Elixir

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#79

Post by mindcrash »

simi_ wrote: post #69
aral wrote: post #47

Hey folks, just wanted to say that it’s very early days at the moment (as WoodenChair commented) — and we’re changing the button to "Sneak Peek" to reflect this. Poor Greg has been working his fingers off to get it ready (he’s pulled three all-nighters and that can’t be healthy so he’s been told in no uncertain terms to get some sleep now) and we should have a running compiler within the week. If any of you want to h…

Startups led by non-engineers just leave a bad taste in my mouth for some reason. This comment definitely evokes that feeling.

Erhm. Aral knows code. Trust me :)

Also if you read a bit further, the effort on Phoenix is lead by Greg Casamento, who is also involved with GNUStep (and thus bringing the NS* objects to Linux).

Re: Introducing Phoenix, Swift set free

#80

Post by LesZedCB »

chc wrote: post #43
3JPLW wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. > "You can imagine that many of us want [Swift] to be open source and part of llvm, but the discussion hasn't happened yet, and won't for some time." - Chris Lattner, LLVMDev mailing list. http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2014-June/073698....

This is strange. You just quoted Chris Lattner saying Apple has no intention of making it open-source, but said it makes me wrong. Indeed, he confirmed that it hadn't even been considered at that time.

The reason you are getting downvoted (I believe) is that you are posing a false dilemma.[1] It is not the case that Apple is most likely going to leave Swift closed source based on the evidence that we've seen. ALL the evidence we have, as far as swift goes, is that they haven't decided yet, according to Chris' email quote. As others have said, most of Apple's other programming language work has become open source, and I would say that evidence is much stronger than the "evidence" (really lack of evidence one way or the other) that they are going to leave it closed source.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

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