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India’s Downward Spiral

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Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#51

Post by _nedR »

higherpurpose wrote: post #28
chunky1994 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I admit the government is trying to censor (or was, I've yet to see any evidence of this from the current government) certain politically critical articles etc. and I am unaware of the true extent of the CMS, the part about the UID program seems rather sensationalist and fear-mongering, since the primary aim of the UID program is the ability to identify the citizens of India similar to the US social security nu…

Surely there are better ways to identify someone than get their fingerprint, especally if they bothererd to called everyone to the police headquarters to get their fingerprint.

Its not just fingerprint (all 10 finger impressions actually) but also retinal scans. And the govt. is gradually making it mandatory for everything from getting 50% subsidies on cooking gas to opening a bank account. It is probably the most ambitious and encompassing citizen database in the world.

And there is practically zero debate on the issues:

1. Is the govt. capable and competent enough to keep the data safe from external and internal threats ( If I had to put money, I would say all or part of the data has already made its way to at least one foreign govt.)

2. Are there enough safeguards in place to prevent this data from being misused? In a country with widespread and endemic corruption and where there have been incidents of govt. indifference or even collusion in events that cost thousands of lives and/or billions of dollars; Can the govt. be trusted with this data at all?

3. Is such a system (whose capabilities and scope far exceed those of most if not all first-world countries) really a priority in a country with grinding poverty, societal issues, illiteracy, inadequate healthcare, poor sanitation, corruption, decrepit infrastructure.

Right now, the Indian masses are probably not educated enough on the issues to have this debate and the govt. is using this fact to try and deploy it as fast as possible.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#52

Post by tn13 »

thepoet wrote: post #41
tn13 wrote: post #37

One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can pass all sort of laws. The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other government approvals wh…

Actually Indian constitution does give Freedom of Speech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#In... but agree there are some restrictions which I assume are valid and are there for other countries too. There are problems enforcing or protecting these rights when you are up against corrupt politicians and organizations.

There is a big technical difference between Indian Constitution's interpretation of right and say that of American constitution.

When it comes to US constitution, the 1st amendment is the stricter condition that each and every other law should meet. Any law passed that is not consistent with 1st amendment thus becomes invalid.

Opposite is the case with Indian constitution. All the rights given by Indian constitution are totally subject to other laws passed by Indian government. Which means "freedom of expression" is a right as long as no other law prevents it. So basically government can deny you that right any time and in any case it wants.

There are total 8 grounds on which a government can pass a law to further lower the freedom of speech. These 8 grounds cover almost every possible case.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#53

Post by tn13 »

pycassa wrote: post #43
tn13 wrote: post #37

One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can pass all sort of laws. The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other government approvals wh…

Is Quickr any good? From my experience, craiglist india is full of spam.. Every board is filled with men trying to hook you up with prostitutes.. No matter what board it is..

CL India is very popular if you are into illegal things.

I managed to sell my bike on Quikr so clearly it works. Indian business face trust issues by default.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#54

Post by pjc50 »

superuser2 wrote: post #45
virtuabhi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of i…

The HN libertarians, for some reason, have an incredibly strongly held conviction that governments should not be able to identify their citizens, even in person, even for legitimate reasons. If you support any reasonably secure government-operated authentication system on HN, you will be downvoted to oblivion (as you just were).

governments should not be able to identify their citizens

This is subtly different from "citizens can authenticate themselves to the government". Universal identity systems result in no place to hide from the system, which can be used against people that the government (or individual corrupt officials!) doesn't like.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#55

Post by thewarrior »

rayiner wrote: post #11
leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

I think you're confusing "democracy" with "secular humanism." India is a deeply conservative, religious place. The people voting don't have any problems with laws that prohibit hurting peoples' religious feelings.

Westerners don't understand that Eastern societies place far greater emphasis on respecting existing social norms/ structures and the idea of "order" .

This is there even in the Indian Constitution. The govt. is allowed to impose restrictions on fundamental rights in order to maintain order and harmony. First Amendment absolutism is totally out of the question in the Indian context.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#56

Post by nitrogen »

cconcepts wrote: post #40
cconcepts wrote: post #19

As someone living in India, I have considered how to set up a discussion board (like HN) that would be easy to use for users but also easy to be moderated of junk (like HN is) but still be effectively anonymous. It would allow discussion on such topics without fear of reprisal. With my lack of coding skills would this even be possible?

Should I be concerned that my https with https://news.ycombinator.com started wigging out after I posted the original question? Chrome wouldn't load it due to safety concerns

Yes, that does sound concerning, though it doesn't necessarily mean anything in particular. If you do get an invalid cert for HN again, please consider posting the fingerprint and CA, etc.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#57

Post by bipin-nag »

nhaehnle wrote: post #35
bipin-nag wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you even know the context of the speech !! It is from Chaos Communication Congress, a hacker meeting. From wiki: The Chaos Communication Congress is an annual meeting of the international hacker scene, organized by the Chaos Computer Club. The congress features a variety of lectures and workshops on technical and political issues. If a hacker community does lecture on political issue, it is not exactly discussing…

Are you sure you properly understand what "hacker" means in this context? I think it's fair to say that some people in the grey to black spectrum also attend the CCC, but overall, yes, people there are genuinely committed to free expression (by everybody, most importantly of course by innocent people). They are using the word "hacker" in the original sense of the word (tinkering with technology etc.) What you're sayi…

It is a community meet, hosted by Europe's largest association of hacker. It is not an official gathering of human right leaders, they act on selfish interests. Are they known for their humanitarian efforts, certainly not.

If anything they would break and work against the security measures, malicious or not depends on them. Through the entire meeting, they mocked the laws, quoting from handful cases which you have been able to find and discussing various security measures as they are used now. Bottom line is break the system for freedom of expression! They are just forcing governments hand to enforce more restrictions. The last thing we need is international hacker groups vouching for freedom of expression in India.

Lastly surveillance in India is nothing compared to the surveillance done by NSA or PLA. A few cases may happen here and there, but it will always be a few. The parent comment was unnecessary sensational.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#58

Post by bipin-nag »

mkal_tsr wrote: post #34
bipin-nag wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you even know the context of the speech !! It is from Chaos Communication Congress, a hacker meeting. From wiki: The Chaos Communication Congress is an annual meeting of the international hacker scene, organized by the Chaos Computer Club. The congress features a variety of lectures and workshops on technical and political issues. If a hacker community does lecture on political issue, it is not exactly discussing…

Why should it be downvoted?

See my above reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8486513.

I would reiterate that the parent was just sensational, and it is a far cry from the surveillance done by U.S.

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