Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

India’s Downward Spiral

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 156 posts

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#11

Post by rayiner »

leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

I think you're confusing "democracy" with "secular humanism." India is a deeply conservative, religious place. The people voting don't have any problems with laws that prohibit hurting peoples' religious feelings.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#12

Post by logicchains »

hackuser wrote: post #9
leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

> Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings It would be interesting to hear from Indians on these issues. I'm not a citizen nor do I live there, but religious conflict often has cost many lives in India. For example, there were the 2002 religious riots in Gujarat which made Modi, now Prime Minister of the country, so controversial; 1,000-2,000 people died…

Expressing Nazi ideas is prohibited in Germany because of what following Nazi ideas can lead to, not just to avoid conflict.

If you forbid peoples' expression in the name of avoiding conflict then you simply allow the ideas of the most bloodthirsty, conflict-minded group to dominate, as this group is the group most likely to get offended, and hence suppressing any ideas that offend this group necessarily leaves this group's ideas unchallenged.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#13

Post by wyager »

leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

>India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy.

"Democracy" doesn't mean "everything is fair". Democracy is just larger groups having absolute power over smaller groups.

There is absolutely no guarantee that the larger group isn't going to oppress the smaller one. This is why constitutional democracies (where the power of the majority is strictly limited) are a popular compromise.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#14

Post by prawn »

monsterix wrote: post #6
leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

> India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy. Second you on that one! I lived in various parts of rural India for a little over 12 years, and the deeper I went, the more I saw people there actively voting in droves. And the harder their life and generally poor state of affairs!

I think those in the West could argue that the poorest in their countries often vote against their personal interests. Not quite the same hardships, but an example of how easily people can be convinced to vote against what might serve them best.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#15

Post by chunky1994 »

manish_gill wrote: post #7

Worse yet, Indian government is apparently trying hard to emulate NSA's Surveillance Programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A91idibgT0&feature=youtu.be Here's the video's info: """India is currently implementing some of the scariest surveillance schemes in the world. This lecture will shed light on India's surveillance industry, its UID scheme which aims at the collection of all biometric data and on various cont…

While I admit the government is trying to censor (or was, I've yet to see any evidence of this from the current government) certain politically critical articles etc. and I am unaware of the true extent of the CMS, the part about the UID program seems rather sensationalist and fear-mongering, since the primary aim of the UID program is the ability to identify the citizens of India similar to the US social security number system.

The reason we need this biomertic data would be to ascertain the identity of over a billion people where unique names, places of birth and the existence of birth certificates aren't the norm, not in order to constantly police the populace.

If you could make more explicit the problems with gathering biometric data of citizens, (which shouldn't be used for security purposes anyway) then I'm sure I would get a better understanding of your position.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#16

Post by bipin-nag »

leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

What you describe is not democracy but tyranny of majority. To curtail it minorities are given extra rights. The ban has to do with hurting religious sentiments of minorities.

Democracy sometimes requires sacrificing a privilege for public benefit. India has a very diverse culture (I would say no other country in world has such a diverse demographic) and co-existence can be uneasy. Non-Indians may not understand the compromises one has to make, to coexist harmoniously.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#17

Post by logicchains »

logicchains wrote: post #12
hackuser wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings It would be interesting to hear from Indians on these issues. I'm not a citizen nor do I live there, but religious conflict often has cost many lives in India. For example, there were the 2002 religious riots in Gujarat which made Modi, now Prime Minister of the country, so controversial; 1,000-2,000 people died…

Expressing Nazi ideas is prohibited in Germany because of what following Nazi ideas can lead to, not just to avoid conflict. If you forbid peoples' expression in the name of avoiding conflict then you simply allow the ideas of the most bloodthirsty, conflict-minded group to dominate, as this group is the group most likely to get offended, and hence suppressing any ideas that offend this group necessarily leaves this…

To whoever downvoted me, was it in objection to my implied description as bloodthirsty of the group behind the religious riots in which "1,000-2,000 people died and there were brutal gang rapes, people being burnt alive and other horrors"? If so, I'd be interested to hear by what standards such behaviour could be considered anything other than bloodthirsty and conflict-minded.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#18

Post by virtuabhi »

manish_gill wrote: post #7

Worse yet, Indian government is apparently trying hard to emulate NSA's Surveillance Programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A91idibgT0&feature=youtu.be Here's the video's info: """India is currently implementing some of the scariest surveillance schemes in the world. This lecture will shed light on India's surveillance industry, its UID scheme which aims at the collection of all biometric data and on various cont…

This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of it being misused is currently unjustified and without any proof.

Secondly, I think most people over-estimate the Indian government's technical ability. We are nowhere near US or China in mass surveillance. No Indian agency has the expertise anywhere near NSA or PLA Unit 61398. And unlike in China where there are many popular local tech companies, Indians use products of American companies (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.). So the government can neither ask the companies for data (like US) nor get the companies to actively participate in any form of censorship (like China). As long as the US companies follow basic security practices (HTTPS, SSL, 2-step verification, etc..) and don't sell out, we should be fine on the internet.

(Disclaimer: Indian citizen)

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#19

Post by cconcepts »

As someone living in India, I have considered how to set up a discussion board (like HN) that would be easy to use for users but also easy to be moderated of junk (like HN is) but still be effectively anonymous.

It would allow discussion on such topics without fear of reprisal.

With my lack of coding skills would this even be possible?

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#20

Post by bipin-nag »

sharoonthomas wrote: post #10
monsterix wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy. Second you on that one! I lived in various parts of rural India for a little over 12 years, and the deeper I went, the more I saw people there actively voting in droves. And the harder their life and generally poor state of affairs!

+1 sadly democracy in India only has the voting part implemented fairly well. It's a monarch until the next election. Even the voting is neck deep in corruption [1] [1] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/cash-for-vo...

What do you mean its a monarch until next election. Head of state is often elected for the term period. Also it maybe one of the cases reported, it doesn't imply voting is entirely corrupt.
Post reply on HN