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India’s Downward Spiral

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Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#41
post #37

One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can pass all sort of laws. The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other government approvals wh…

Actually Indian constitution does give Freedom of Speech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#In... but agree there are some restrictions which I assume are valid and are there for other countries too. There are problems enforcing or protecting these rights when you are up against corrupt politicians and organizations.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#42
post #9

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

> Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings It would be interesting to hear from Indians on these issues. I'm not a citizen nor do I live there, but religious conflict often has cost many lives in India. For example, there were the 2002 religious riots in Gujarat which made Modi, now Prime Minister of the country, so controversial; 1,000-2,000 people died…

As much as I hate it, I think in the case of India, preventing religious conflicts is best compared to defending free speech. The amount of police force needed to protect people who in the name of free speech offend religious sentiments and the community that gets affected because of the speech would be prohibitive. Plus, Indians are in general too sensitive about religion in general though that is slowly fading away. We need more success stories of satellite launches and corruption free bureaucracy to start believing in science, democracy, judiciary more than religion. Even now, there are different family laws based on what religion a person is hailing from. This is done so people can still apply their religious morality when it comes to family matters. For many western folks, this can be confusing. I for one have long wanted a uniform civil code in India. When I was raised, I was not told about the indian judicial system and what it means to break country's laws. I was taught about not breaking the hindu code of law. So religion is part of pretty much everyone's upbringing. I know very few strong atheist Indians. (I am transforming from being a theist to an agnostic.) With religion and God, there seems to be a constant hope. With other things, especially in India, people do not have that hope. As far as the modi example goes, supreme court of India did not find Modi guilty. So as per the country's laws, he is allowed to contest elections. He did so and won. People voted for him because he gave them a hope of development. He has been elected chief minister thrice in the state of Gujarat even winning elections after the riots. There is also a number's game here. 80% of Indians are Hindus and only 15% are muslims. The media coverage often cited the burning of Hindu pilgrims in train as the starting point of the riots which probably swayed the voters. What happened in Gujarat is completely wrong but I'd say it happened because some religious fanatics decided to throw propaganda speeches (in the name of exercising free speech) worsening the problem.

I do believe however there is in general liberty to free speech as long as it doesn't involve religious flame wars or speeches filled with national hate (You may want to read up on arrests of pro-LTTE speakers) . The isolated examples quoted in the original article can be argued case by case and as far as I know convictions have not been obtained. So the law is taking it's course. The very act of arresting them is violating civil liberties but there is no strong organization like the ACLU in India (there is PUCL but it's pretty dormant) to help citizens. And common people do not want to spend the money on lawyers and courts. So police force will continue to abuse their powers because no one keeps them in check. I've personally faced police excesses and it was more of a taboo to explain it to your family that you were picked up for questioning. In India, the very act of you being questioned by police is seen as a character issue.

Long story short, when I see first world struggling with civil liberties (I live in USA now), I do not expect India to do better. It is also unfair to compare a much younger democracy with an older democracy that still hasn't figured out civil liberties in digital age completely. I also do not expect India to lead the world in terms of civil liberties in next 20 years (either digital or regular). I do hope the remaining humanity in Indians don't vanish. Otherwise, we'd implode.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#43
post #37

One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can pass all sort of laws. The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other government approvals wh…

Is Quickr any good? From my experience, craiglist india is full of spam.. Every board is filled with men trying to hook you up with prostitutes.. No matter what board it is..

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#45

Worse yet, Indian government is apparently trying hard to emulate NSA's Surveillance Programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A91idibgT0&feature=youtu.be Here's the video's info: """India is currently implementing some of the scariest surveillance schemes in the world. This lecture will shed light on India's surveillance industry, its UID scheme which aims at the collection of all biometric data and on various cont…

This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of i…

The HN libertarians, for some reason, have an incredibly strongly held conviction that governments should not be able to identify their citizens, even in person, even for legitimate reasons. If you support any reasonably secure government-operated authentication system on HN, you will be downvoted to oblivion (as you just were).

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#46
post #43
post #37

One of the biggest difference between US and India is the constitution. Indian constitution does not give freedom of speech to its people. So government can pass all sort of laws. The 1st amendment to US constitution gives people freedom of speech and ensures that government can not pass any laws against it. On the other hand all the "rights" that Indian constitution gives are subject to other government approvals wh…

Is Quickr any good? From my experience, craiglist india is full of spam.. Every board is filled with men trying to hook you up with prostitutes.. No matter what board it is..

Ya Quikr is good, you can also try olx.in

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#47

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

Came here to say exactly this.

There are two parts to this as I see it with some bit of overlap.

1. A hard core group (could be religious, person centric (e.g., Mahatma Gandhi)) that act as custodians of "sentiments" of larger population. They act with various degrees of violence if they believe that the sentiments have been hurt [1], [2]. The police force itself generally sides with the mob and they cite oft repeated phrase of "natural reaction by the crowd" as a reason for avoiding taking action.

2. Freedom of expression that's curtailed by law and codified in law books.

For me #2 above is far more serious issue. Various courts routinely invoke this law, which is amazingly ill-defined to start with, to suppress any kind of dissent. I can't cite hard data here but in my life time I can clearly see an uptrend in such cases. There's also a harsher (some say draconian) law around sedition. Even if you are a mere sympathizer with a banned group then you will be treated as an enemy of the state; there's no soft middle ground here and you are treated as a militant [3].

Shiny GDP and development notwithstanding India is fast moving towards dictatorship which is really unfortunate as right to dissent is the core of a democratic society.

[1]: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/politics/muslim-techi...

[2]: http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/kerala-police-may-b...

[3]: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/du-profe...

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of i…

The HN libertarians, for some reason, have an incredibly strongly held conviction that governments should not be able to identify their citizens, even in person, even for legitimate reasons. If you support any reasonably secure government-operated authentication system on HN, you will be downvoted to oblivion (as you just were).

[deleted]

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#49
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The HN libertarians, for some reason, have an incredibly strongly held conviction that governments should not be able to identify their citizens, even in person, even for legitimate reasons. If you support any reasonably secure government-operated authentication system on HN, you will be downvoted to oblivion (as you just were).

[deleted]

What argument?
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