Career planning: Where do old devs go to? • Hacker News Board

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#241

Post by unoti » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #190

shanemhansen wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

If you're an older tech worker, for the most part, LinkedIn is just a firehose of crap. At worst, it's: Hi, I see you're doing [JOB] at [COMPANY]. How would you like to do [JOB minus 4] at [COMPANY minus 2]? We have Beer Thursdays and your fellow employees will all be young enough to be your sons (and yes, they're all male). And at best it's: Hi, I see you're doing [JOB] at [COMPANY]. How would you like to do the sam…

It's a firehose, not a high class wine tasting room, you are correct. But one is at least unlikely to go thirsty, which is far better than it has been from time to time over the last couple of decades.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#242

Post by Lambdanaut » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #173

ThomaszKrueger wrote: post #92

I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…

"There is no engineering in programming." It really depends on the industry and context. Part of me really envies you if you can say that much and that reflects your experience. I spent most of today making sure that my SPMP, SQAP, SCMP, SRS, etc... documents conform to the relevant IEEE standard. If none of these acronyms means anything to you, again, I envy you.

Why would you be doing that? That sounds awful. I hope you're being compensated well.

Consider spending some of your day to automate these tasks. It sounds easily automatable.

I wrote a script that checks that Python scripts conform to standards and it worked well and saved a lot of time. Perhaps something like that would save you a lot of time and allow you to spend your working day doing something more fullfilling.

I wish the best of luck to you sir!

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#243

Post by Kurtz79 » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #233

Kurtz79 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no engineering in programming." It really depends on the industry and context. Part of me really envies you if you can say that much and that reflects your experience. I spent most of today making sure that my SPMP, SQAP, SCMP, SRS, etc... documents conform to the relevant IEEE standard. If none of these acronyms means anything to you, again, I envy you.

SPMP - Software Project Management Plan? SQAP - Software Quality Assurance Plan? SCMP - Software Configuration Management Plan? SRS - Software Requirements Specification? I've seen "engineering" defined as "statics, dynamics, and thermodynamics", but what you've listed sounds much more like engineering to me.

Yup. IEEE 1558-2004.

I might be wrong, but I believe "Software Engineering" is a more common concept in Europe than US, since many "Computer Science" degrees are actually part of Engineering Universities curricula.

That is to say, many universities are more likely to offer a "Software Engineering" degree rather than a "Computer Science" one. But it might be only my experience.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#244

Post by orjan » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:37 PM UTC

brogrammer90 wrote: post #238

unoti wrote: post #236

I'm 46, I programmed a computer for the first time when I was 10, back when Pong was starting to wane and the Atari 2600 was starting to get big. I've been programming continuously since then for 36 years. It's been challenging me to stay with it that long, and most people I've known have dropped out for these reasons: 1.) Developers get comfortable with a given technology, and eventually stop learning. And the longe…

In regards to your third point, how do you differentiate yourself from a 23 year old kid who has the same amount of experience with the new technologies? Also how do live with yourself having to learn this new platform written by someone half your age?

The older you get, the less you are concerned with age, and more with actual competence.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#245

Post by MrDom » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

MrDom wrote: post #226

vonmoltke wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, if you were any good an shining in an interview, you wouldn't need the recruiter in the first place. If you need the recruiter in order to get the interview in the first place, it doesn't matter how well you shine in the interview.

Yet more catch-22. Just out of curiosity, have you had success using recruiters to find jobs?

Why the downvote? It's an honest question. If my assumptions are wrong, I'd like to know.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#246

Post by unoti » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

brogrammer90 wrote: post #238

unoti wrote: post #236

I'm 46, I programmed a computer for the first time when I was 10, back when Pong was starting to wane and the Atari 2600 was starting to get big. I've been programming continuously since then for 36 years. It's been challenging me to stay with it that long, and most people I've known have dropped out for these reasons: 1.) Developers get comfortable with a given technology, and eventually stop learning. And the longe…

In regards to your third point, how do you differentiate yourself from a 23 year old kid who has the same amount of experience with the new technologies? Also how do live with yourself having to learn this new platform written by someone half your age?

A few ways: probably superior project management skills, information organization skills, communication skills, systems architecture skills, data design skills, and domain knowledge. If we're talking about payment processing, I could list 10 things off the top of my head to look out for to avoid difficulties in the application, for example.

I know how to start with a vague notion of a system, interview 15 domain experts in the field, and turn that huge mass of random information into an organized document. I know how to collaborate with others to make a design, and manage the project through to completion. For certain areas of domain knowledge, I have knowledge and skills on par with top industry experts. And the 23 year old kid may actually meet or exceed any of those things, but probably has never successfully worked trade shows, sold products, or given presentations or training programs. I also run my own business that's profitable that I started from nothing, and has been going for a few years.

That doesn't really matter too much in a lot of situations though, so in a lot of cases, maybe I can't differentiate myself. I, too, was once a 23-year old badass who had been programming for 13 years since before getting out of grade school, and knew everything, and was the most amazing programmer around. The most important advantage I have over the me back then is now I know I'm not as smart as I thought, and I understand much better the importance of teamwork and giving everybody on the team a chance to shine.

Living with code written by someone half my age is no problem at all. A far more difficult thing is dealing with code that's badly written. But all professional developers eventually learn to deal with that; it's like how sailors learn to deal with rough weather.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#247

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #126

nsxwolf wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An HR manager said this to my mother's face once. Please consider people's feelings before using it. It's likely to be interpreted as "you've wasted your career and/or life".

It's not necessarily a bad thing to hear something that sounds bad. Even after years on this planet people can rediscover themselves and start a kind of life they didn't even know it exists. Not telling people who are bad that they are bad is a concept I have a hard time to understand. Instead of worrying about feelings why not worry about really being this better person people can't complain (as much) about?

No it's not a bad thing. Problem is that way too many people use this as an excuse to be an asshole. Remember that no one likes to be criticized. If you need to do that, you owe the person the basic human dignity of considering their feelings and being diplomatic.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#248

Post by brational » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #138

segmondy wrote: post #36

They don't GO anywhere, they STAY wherever they are. Older folks tend to have more responsibilities, family, kids, retirement to worry about etc. They are less risk prone, they understand that office politics comes with it and the next job will still have politics and might be worse, so they stay put. At all companies I've worked for, I've noticed that the young folks are quick to go look for a new job after a year o…

Everyone who is employed "at will" should always be looking. If your company has merged, been acquired, or acquired another company within the last 2 years, you should be looking. If you do not get at least a 2% raise every year, without fail, you should be looking. If your vacation and sick pay recently went to PTO instead, you should be looking. If your company is pushing "consumer directed" health insurance at you…

> If your vacation and sick pay recently went to PTO instead, you should be looking.

Can you explain this one? I don't even come close to using my sick time up. I'd much rather have them give it as one giant PTO bucket (unless you're implying PTO is less in total than vacation + sick).

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#249

Post by xor-xor » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #159

ThomaszKrueger wrote: post #92

I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…

I'm a programmer in my 30's and my wife is a writer (short stories mainly). We've discussed how similar writing and programming are, and it's a lot more than I would have initially though. Think of when you are working on a large project and you all of a sudden need to refactor some module which then has a huge impact all over the application. This is similar to a novel where late into the book the author figures out…

Speaking of such parallels... There's that classic essay by Thomas Scoville - "The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature" (http://theody.net/elements.html). I highly recommend reading it to anyone, even though it's not directly tied to "programmers" in the contemporary sense of this term.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#250

Post by bglazer » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 6:01 PM UTC

etrevino wrote: post #165

bglazer wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh good god I do Business Objects work right now. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Not even for 150k.

Well shit. I start a new job working on it ... on Monday. Any suggestions for books on it? They're training me, but the more I can learn on my own, the better.

I'm mostly self-trained. That's probably a part of the problem. The utterly broken way that my team decided to build the reports probably doesn't help either.

Sorry, no suggestions for books.

Do you know if you'll be working with Crystal Reports? Or directly with the Business Objects API? Either way they're both very, very poorly designed and implemented. Good luck I hope you're getting paid well.