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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#151
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many years of experience do you keep on your resume? I've been keeping 20, but it seems the bay area startups can smell that I'm old. (I've not met age discrimination outside of the bay area startups run by 22 year old type companies.)

Interesting idea. I had never considered "aging off" experience. It might be doubly useful in my case, because my first and oldest job was almost pure EE.

Indeed. Your resume is just a tool to get your foot in the door, to get that first conversation with a hiring manager or an interview. Extraneous things, like irrelevant experience, get in the way of that.

Note this will depend on such things as having enough experience to show you're a generically good employee. If you were a new graduate I'd look favorably on e.g. in high school starting out at entry level in a fast food restaurant and working your way up to, say, shift manager (if you could make it that far, very favorably).

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#152
post #31
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

both of those routes is boring - which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries? Don't say startup because that's just money earned on risk-taking, not guaranteed payment like a salary.

which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries? The engineering track at AmaGooBookSoft. You'll earn +/- $200k a year mid-career and have roughly zero market or execution risk. There exist many options if you're willing to take more than a W-2 employee level of risk. (e.g. Found a boutique consultancy. Redirect the conversation when your W-2 friends ask what your we…

Hey Patrick, could you talk more about the options available to you if you are good enough to get into AmaGooBookSoft, as well as ready to take on plenty of risk?

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#153
post #32

Falsification: around and after age 35 I found it increasingly difficult to find work, until I got a clue and scrubbed my resume of all evidence of exactly how old I was (removed education dates; I'd already been trimming older jobs due to length and lack of relevance). Did that in the midst of one job search and the difference was like night and day. BIG caveat: my family and I look a lot younger than we are, with n…

> until I got a clue and scrubbed my resume of all evidence of exactly how old I was (removed education dates;

I've done that.

> I'd already been trimming older jobs due to length and lack of relevance)

And will probably try that as well. I agree that removing any indicators of age helped a lot with getting interviews. This would also help with clueless agents contacting me about PHP or Perl jobs when it's been a very long time since I did either of those things.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#154
post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose.

While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you to learn the flavor-of-the-month js framework. It's no surprise that we don't see many experienced professionals competing for what are essentially entry-level jobs (despite the use of the word senior in the job title and despite the high salaries inexperienced developers command). Obviously not all experienced professionals have built up that network. Those are the people you see applying for jobs.

Source: I spent a couple years getting to know a network of CTO's and architects who have been doing ecommerce since it's inception. They are in demand, they don't apply for jobs, and they are paid handsomely, and yes some of them are grandfathers or grandmothers.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#155
post #5

I think there are two explanations. 1) One explanation is that, often unexperienced people start doing programming, start looking for a job, but after 1 or 2 years, they just know its not their cup of thee. Lots of people try learning programming themselves. And while it may work out ofr a lot of them. I think there is also a huge dropoff. During my computerscience study at university there was almost 50% dropoff aft…

You forgot: 3) People with 10+ years experience generally don't go out looking for work and applying for interviews. By then you have enough connections that if you want to change job, you'll find it through old colleagues. Not by shopping around like younger devs. This applies to most all professional occupations, not just Software Engineering. If you look at people applying for positions in economics / law you'll s…

This is overwhelmingly because the resume and interview route to acquiring a new job is so incredibly worthless and inefficient.

I'm actually surprised that I have found so many jobs that way, compared to how easy it was just knowing some people who already work at the company who is hiring. I still had to interview, though--one interview with the hiring manager and her boss that took less than an hour.

The only problem is that very few of my old colleagues have connections to any of the jobs that I might actually want.

So now the standard response I get is "we decided to hire someone that was a better fit for us" or "we decided not to fill the position at this time". If you can't read the subtext, that means "you're too old (and therefore expensive)" or "we were trying to import someone cheaply, and your application screwed that up."

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#156
This is true in any field: your employment picture looks very different at 40 than it does at 20. Lots of the reasons why are more due to real-life (TM) than the job market. At 20, you don't really mind renting a spare bedroom in the basement of somebody's house and working 100+ weeks trying to build the latest whatever non-world transforming consumer web thing. You have all the time in the world and no obligations beyond growing your career. You're living to work at this point.

At 40+ you probably have a couple kids, a mortgage, a spouse, education loans, car payments, family vacations, pets, children's activities, children's pets, your own personal activities, cocktail parties, maybe saving up for your kids' college educations, whatever. Unless you've found yourself without these kinds of obligations, your job will end up being defined as something that can fit a work to live scenario. This is very hard to do in the previously described scenario.

So what's left? Some startups will let you do the 9-5/5 40 hour work week, but the reality is that big boring mega corps, building boring B2B insurance/inventory/timecard processing/bleh software is where you're likely to find the kinds of jobs that fit your new "adult" lifestyle. And you know what? You won't really care all that much.

If you do care, and you're tired of figuring out the access permissions for this role as part of that use-case for the umpteenth million time, you can career shift into management and start learning about the business you were supporting as a developer. You might want to end up managing other developers, being a "nerd herder", which presents an whole new set of fantastically non-deterministic challenges. You might move into product or program management, and be responsible for overseeing execution of contracts or high-level delivery of vague CEO initiatives, an entirely different challenge.

You may even want to take the plunge and shift into sales, starting as a sales engineer, but developing your own clients and moving into a full-service sales and solutions provider role...which you might later turn into a business consulting company later. Your hours might be more flexible and your pay can be unlimited in this kind of role.

Lots of startups make a big deal about the "full-stack" developer, you can do front and back-end systems with equal finesse. But a "full-business" developer, who understands the entire business from sales-cycle to post-delivery product-support can be extraordinarily powerful and I guarantee that job can be very interesting. The tech can be boring, but the kind of critical thinking and task breakdown skills you might bring with you from development can be really useful elsewhere in the business world.

You might even learn enough about some segment of the "business stack" that you realize you can launch your own startup targeting software to solve some problem you saw when you were operating in that portion of the business.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#157
post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

> Right now there is a [firehose] of job offers from recruiters on linkedin

Interview offers, and they only come to the people who have the right combination of keywords and location. Miss on one or both of those counts, and you are invisible. The second seems to be much more important than the first, too.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#158
post #84
post #76

You wind up taking "haircuts" and doing without equity here in Los Angeles till you are like me, 43 and forced to live in a squat with no running water because the startup you were working for decided to kick up your hours to 21 days, 7 days a week with no overtime, and then cuts your base pay by 2/3 so the founders don't take a haircut, this has been happening over and over for 14 years for me to the point where thi…

Why do you let them treat you like that? There are other options.

> LA

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#159

I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…

I'm a programmer in my 30's and my wife is a writer (short stories mainly). We've discussed how similar writing and programming are, and it's a lot more than I would have initially though.

Think of when you are working on a large project and you all of a sudden need to refactor some module which then has a huge impact all over the application. This is similar to a novel where late into the book the author figures out they want to change some part of a main character (like their origin, name, just some kind of detail), which will require fixing it all over the book. Writers refactor similarly to programmers.

Writers have outlines. Programmers have design documents.

There are more parallels between the two, but I forget many of them right now.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 47* and I've been around a bit (dotcom era startups to banking and telecoms) and I'm familiar with the 75% mentioned. There is a type of programmer that works away in blue chips turning up to work on time, doing what's asked of them and then knocking off at half five. Sure they maybe repeat the same one year's experience year after year perhaps with some technology transitioning years from COBOL to VB to VB.NET o…

>> It's just a job I can understand this mentality, but cannot sympathize with it. Personally, I refuse to treat my job as "just a job." I want it to mean something. I want to look forward to coming to work everyday. I want to feel like the work I do makes a difference, as opposed to fizzle out and die in the massive corporate bureaucracy. I hate the idea that I'm just spinning my wheels, looking busy, collecting a p…

> Personally, I refuse to treat my job as "just a job." I want it to mean something.

Well, some people don't build model airplanes after work. They raise families, work at food banks, take care of their elderly parents, sponsor people in AA, and so on. Ideally, every waking minute of your life will make the world a better place, but it's a luxury to expect a career that really means something.

Good luck on your career decision. It sounds like you've already made up your mind, but in general it's a good idea to talk to your boss about the soulcrushingness of work well before you want to quit. It's possible that she would be willing to give you more variety, responsibility, or freedom to keep you around.

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