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On Elitism

stanford.edu

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Re: On Elitism

#71

Post by pgbovine »

Confusion wrote: post #23
scott_s wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If think you replace "smartest" with "most successful", the point he's trying to make does not change.

Which is still a ridiculous point: A/A+ students are not necessarily smarter, more successful, more intelligent, whatever-you-want-to-call-it than B+/A- students. His sole defense of that assertion is if you're so damn smart, wouldn't it take you just slightly more effort to get an A which I cannot characterize as anything else but a total lack of any sense of what someone may want to do with his time, other than obt…

Hi Confusion, I totally agree 100% with all of your points. I have absolutely no problems with people who choose to devote their energies outside of their schoolwork. My gripe is with kids who don't do that well in school but then vocally brag about how smart they are in particular school topics. A contrived example would be some kid in your high school class who is a solid B student but is always bragging about how he knows the material inside-out. I think that if you want to brag about how good you are in class, then you should probably have the grades to back it up, since by definition, grades are the metric by which people judge you in a particular class. I'm in no way saying that kids who don't do well in class aren't smart ... I definitely know people who didn't get great grades but are amazing hackers.

Re: On Elitism

#72

Post by alexgartrell »

pgbovine wrote: post #65

hi everyone, this is the author --- wow, i totally didn't expect a random rant of mine to be posted on hacker news :) after monitoring comments for a few hours, i finally had to sign up for an account. First off, I should mention the context of my article: I wrote that (admittedly not so well-written) article from personal observations I made of technical people in various fields working in various jobs at various co…

Without passing any judgement whatsoever, I'm going to leave this link here :)

http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/advantages-of-name-brand-s...

Re: On Elitism

#73

Post by pgbovine »

scott_s wrote: post #67
elblanco wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, I can see how that was trollish. So I'll elaborate. Mr. Guo exists in a world built upon a false axiom, "only the smartest make it into the top schools, and that people who don't make it into those schools are obviously not the smartest." Making it into a top school implies top grades. And since only top grades can get you into top schools, only the smartest get top grades. Since people who have made it…

His arguments are not built on that axiom. Never does he claim that the "only the smartest" people make it into the top schools. His argument is based on signals (such as grades and pedigree), not actual intelligence. His claim is that some people who lack one signal (academic pedigree) will try to compensate with another signal (elitism).

thanks for that post, scott_s!

that beautifully sums up the thrust of my article way better than my article actually did ;)

sorry for seeming like i'm sucking up, but i think that comments on HN are amongst the highest quality i've seen on the web ... perhaps there should be an online service where an intelligent crowd reads articles and tries to summarize them succinctly in one sentence or paragraph. i think that this organically occurs with lots of articles posted on HN ... amongst the dozens of comments, there will be a few awesome summaries.

Re: On Elitism

#74

Post by pgbovine »

frig wrote: post #29
Locke1689 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty impressive: 2009 ACM SIGSOFT Distinguished Paper Award for HAMPI: A Solver for String Constraints, an ISSTA 2009 paper with Kiezun (lead author), Ganesh, Hooimeijer, and Ernst The rest is mediocre-impressive. Nothing to laugh at, but nothing to distinguish him from the other MIT/Stanford students either. I think he has a good point.

Wow I've been looking for a library like HAMPI for a long time. Serendipity at its finest.

sorry it's off-topic, but you can download it from here:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/akiezun/hampi/

Re: On Elitism

#75

Post by pgbovine »

alexgartrell wrote: post #72
pgbovine wrote: post #65

hi everyone, this is the author --- wow, i totally didn't expect a random rant of mine to be posted on hacker news :) after monitoring comments for a few hours, i finally had to sign up for an account. First off, I should mention the context of my article: I wrote that (admittedly not so well-written) article from personal observations I made of technical people in various fields working in various jobs at various co…

Without passing any judgement whatsoever, I'm going to leave this link here :) http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/advantages-of-name-brand-s...

ha thanks for the free advertising :) so, just to preempt any ad hominem attacks, here is what this article is NOT trying to say:

1.) people who did not go to 'name-brand' universities are somehow less intelligent or less deserving of professional success

2.) people who did go to 'name-brand' universities are somehow super awesome

3.) people who went to 'name-brand' universities are somehow more deserving of the advantages that are bestowed on them

I'm just trying to tell a collection of stories i've heard from friends and learned through my own experiences. I hope that I don't come off as being too judgmental :)

Re: On Elitism

#76

Post by pgbovine »

tokenadult wrote: post #2

The blogger doth protest too much, methinks. We learn all about his academic credentials almost as soon as the blog post begins, but don't hear anything about his real-world accomplishments beyond attending great schools. What does everyone think of the blogger's academics page? http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/academic.htm Disclaimer: I don't know the blogger, and as far as I know I don't know any of his profession…

i also think this guy is a real tool who hasn't accomplished anything noteworthy in life. and what kind of a stupid username is pgbovine?

but seriously, i'm hoping that the level of discourse on HN stays above ad hominem attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

Re: On Elitism

#77

Post by pgbovine »

jhancock wrote: post #28
catzaa wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unfortunately true. There is this old joke: Q: How do you know someone is from MIT {Stanford, Havard, ...}? A: He tells you.

The refined version for those from Harvard is: Q: Where did you go to school? A: Boston. Q: uhh, where in Boston? A: Harvard. They make you draw it out of them. I have found at least three types of people that respond in this manner: 1 - The person that was raised elite since birth and really doesn't care at all what you think about him. So him dragging it out is him avoiding the question and hoping you'll learn not…

the motivation for people i know to do that is less disingenuous ...

4 - if you say that you went to Harvard (or another well-known university), lots of people automatically cringe and think "ugh this guy must be a snob!", so if you're really not a snob, then the reason for avoiding specifics is so that people don't pre-judge upon first impressions.

the responses to my article sort of exemplifies this phenomenon. lots of readers didn't like how i 'name-dropped' where i attended school ... i was mentioning where i went to school because it's relevant for the point i'm making in my article, not merely to show off or brag.

oftentimes i don't tell people where i went to school because i don't want to automatically be viewed as a snob on first impressions.

Re: On Elitism

#78

Post by elblanco »

alexgartrell wrote: post #72
pgbovine wrote: post #65

hi everyone, this is the author --- wow, i totally didn't expect a random rant of mine to be posted on hacker news :) after monitoring comments for a few hours, i finally had to sign up for an account. First off, I should mention the context of my article: I wrote that (admittedly not so well-written) article from personal observations I made of technical people in various fields working in various jobs at various co…

Without passing any judgement whatsoever, I'm going to leave this link here :) http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/advantages-of-name-brand-s...

The subtle irony of this is lost on so many. I wish I could upvote this more than once.

Re: On Elitism

#79

Post by alexgartrell »

pgbovine wrote: post #75
alexgartrell wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without passing any judgement whatsoever, I'm going to leave this link here :) http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/advantages-of-name-brand-s...

ha thanks for the free advertising :) so, just to preempt any ad hominem attacks, here is what this article is NOT trying to say: 1.) people who did not go to 'name-brand' universities are somehow less intelligent or less deserving of professional success 2.) people who did go to 'name-brand' universities are somehow super awesome 3.) people who went to 'name-brand' universities are somehow more deserving of the adva…

    They figure that it's tough enough to get into and 
    graduate from MIT, so even a mediocre MIT student might do 
    the job as well as an exceptional student at a normal 
    (lesser-known) university.

Re: On Elitism

#80

Post by fburnaby »

This is a fun paradox: someone who graduated from {MIT, Harvard, etc.} can't say they did, since it would be elitist. They can stop mentioning their Alma mater when they realize that it sounds elitist to mention it. But then it just seems like they're not mentioning it, as a way of signaling their lack of need to mention it (their status is obvious). Once you graduate from any of these schools, there's no way not to sound elitist when asked where you went to school. You're trapped.

PS - This, of course, doesn't mean someone graduating from these schools isn't elitist. It's just that the social exchange in which they tell you their Alma mater doesn't give you any information in regards to their elitism.

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