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On Elitism

stanford.edu

61–70 of 116 posts

Re: On Elitism

#61
post #15

It is probably true that people who scholastic reputation will try to make up for it in other ways. However the problem is that there may be too much authority placed in these usual standards of achievements. Philip forgets that people with academic credentials like himself are being smug when they complain about others. If your academic credentials represent you so well, why should it bother you if someone is simply…

What these type of people want is to have the "Harvard" reputation when it suits them, and the average Joe culpability should they ever fail.

Bingo.

Elitists tend to focus conversations around where they are going or went to school, where they work, or "who they know". Conversely, the genuinely smart / non-elitists get more excited talking about what subjects of University studies interest them. The minute the issue of "studied @'_____'" enters the conversation, the conversation has taken on an element of ego, elitism and inferiority that detracts from the interesting subject at hand.

Imho, these "Ivy League" (or whatever they're called these days) Universities are entirely overrated. Not to mention overpriced! In fact, it seems kind of stupid these days to expend the amount of $ demanded by them on a piece of paper that, thanks to libraries and the Internet, can be whatever you want to make it.

Re: On Elitism

#62
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If think you replace "smartest" with "most successful", the point he's trying to make does not change.

Which is still a ridiculous point: A/A+ students are not necessarily smarter, more successful, more intelligent, whatever-you-want-to-call-it than B+/A- students. His sole defense of that assertion is if you're so damn smart, wouldn't it take you just slightly more effort to get an A which I cannot characterize as anything else but a total lack of any sense of what someone may want to do with his time, other than obt…

> They don't want to accept the fact that there may have been guys that could outdo them, but didn't bother.

I guess I was one of these guys too. I perceived striving for best grades as inefficient use of my time. I remembered interesting things automatically, I memorized things useful for applications of interesting things with bit of effort. With the rest, I didn't bother. For much effort on my side reward would be very little if any, so I was satisfied with any grade I got, as long as it was passing grade (it was not always easy to get, lack of interest and reputation in the subject sometimes makes getting passing grade really hard).

I believe that striving for best grades can have significant mental risk because some things depend only on chance and there is nothing more stressful than seeing how your hard effort becoming pointless by silly accident of teacher being in a bad mood.

That changed a little bit in college. There I was satisfied with grades that gave me grade average high enough to get highest merit-based scholarship, because I always liked getting money for something else than my time. With this strategy I ended up as one of 10 best graduates.

Along the way, when current school topics aligned with my interests I was getting highest grades. In case of C++ course after spending week on reading interesting half of Bjarne Stroustrup's book, on tests I was pointing out the mistakes in test questions, and providing two answers, one according to intention of the question writer and other according to exact erroneous phrasing of the question. The grade I got was something like A++ (no one else got it) and it was illegal so on later occasions it was counted as A+).

When topics diverged from my interests other people were doing better. I wasn't jealous of them because I was never interested in competing with them on their ground and I was pretty sure that on grounds that were important to me they could never be significantly better than I was. When I think of this now I never actually felt good about beating them in my domain. I felt that if they were as interested in these things as I was they could achieve similar results as I did.

Re: On Elitism

#63
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoted obviously from a Stanford grad.

You're new here, so please read the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair enough, I can see how that was trollish. So I'll elaborate.

Mr. Guo exists in a world built upon a false axiom, "only the smartest make it into the top schools, and that people who don't make it into those schools are obviously not the smartest." Making it into a top school implies top grades. And since only top grades can get you into top schools, only the smartest get top grades.

Since people who have made it into top schools are the smartest, it is obvious that they do not need to demonstrate their intelligence, schooling or other such

This is the thrust of his entire argument, period. Yet anybody with access to the Internet knows that top grades correlate poorly to other measures of intelligence. Being common knowledge, perpetuating notion that top grades = top intellect is clearly a basic untruth (maybe "lie" is too trollish, dunnah).

Therefore (spelling it out formally now),

If top grades != top intellect and top grades implies entrance into top schools the students at top schools are not guaranteed to be persons of top intellect

Since we have now formally established that not all the people at Stanford (just using Mr. Guo's school as an exemplar here) are not of the top intellect, we know that there exists people who attended non-top schools who are of the top intellect (or did not attend post 12th grade schooling at all!).

And we also know that, using this article as an exemplar as well, that there exists people who are inclined, like Mr. Guo, to assume that people who did not attend a top school are also not of top intellect, that persons of top intellect who did not attend a top school must therefore clarify this basic truth to persons like Mr. Guo.

The problem with this of course is that Mr. Guo works off of a false axiom, so people who have tried to clarify this to him are viewed as, to use Mr. Guo's own word choice, disreputable?

In other words, he's calling them liars.

Re: On Elitism

#64
post #8

Unfortunately where I went to middle/high school there was very little elitism built around GPA and test scores. However, everyone just instinctively knew that the most dangerous bullies were not the most popular kids, but instead the kids just below them in the social heirarchy. The top tier were generally secure in themselves, but those below were always looking for an edge to get into the pantheon.

Indeed, pg addresses this in his essay on why nerds are unpopular in school. Here's my question: does bullying ever give an edge into the pantheon?

No. But that never stopped those guys from bullying. If they understood this then they may have been at the top.

Re: On Elitism

#65
hi everyone, this is the author --- wow, i totally didn't expect a random rant of mine to be posted on hacker news :) after monitoring comments for a few hours, i finally had to sign up for an account.

First off, I should mention the context of my article: I wrote that (admittedly not so well-written) article from personal observations I made of technical people in various fields working in various jobs at various companies (I don't want to name drop any further, heh). It was just my personal observation that given two people in the same exact job position WITH EQUAL INTELLIGENCE/SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/ETC., the one who went to a lesser-known university was usually more vocal about announcing his/her skills and, in a way, disparaging of people from so-called name-brand schools.

Sorry I didn't intend to make any sorts of value judgments as to how university reputation correlates with intelligence, likelihood of success, etc.

Now I'm gonna have some fun responding to other people's comments :)

Re: On Elitism

#66
post #35

The author writes about himself, "Coming from two universities with world-renowned Computer Science departments (MIT and Stanford) and having worked at a top-tier software company (Google) as well as at several less high-profile companies ..." Meaning, of course, that he is not elitist -- he just had to share these crucial facts about himself.

fair enough, that does sound pretty elitist ;) sorry if i offended people with that language.

but the rest of that sentence says "... , I have seen a wide variety of personalities and egos amongst computer scientists and software engineers."

the point of that paragraph was to establish that i had experience in interacting with CS people from a variety of backgrounds, both from so-called elitist places and from less elitist places (i suppose i should've also listed the other lesser-known places where i've worked and gone to school, but since by definition they're not well-known 'elitist' places, you probably wouldn't have heard of them anyways)

wow, had i known that my article would someday be posted on a news aggregator site, i would've definitely been more politically correct in my word choice :)

Re: On Elitism

#67
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're new here, so please read the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair enough, I can see how that was trollish. So I'll elaborate. Mr. Guo exists in a world built upon a false axiom, "only the smartest make it into the top schools, and that people who don't make it into those schools are obviously not the smartest." Making it into a top school implies top grades. And since only top grades can get you into top schools, only the smartest get top grades. Since people who have made it…

His arguments are not built on that axiom. Never does he claim that the "only the smartest" people make it into the top schools. His argument is based on signals (such as grades and pedigree), not actual intelligence.

His claim is that some people who lack one signal (academic pedigree) will try to compensate with another signal (elitism).

Re: On Elitism

#68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're new here, so please read the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair enough, I can see how that was trollish. So I'll elaborate. Mr. Guo exists in a world built upon a false axiom, "only the smartest make it into the top schools, and that people who don't make it into those schools are obviously not the smartest." Making it into a top school implies top grades. And since only top grades can get you into top schools, only the smartest get top grades. Since people who have made it…

wow, that is quite a stretch from what i said or implied in my article! Here is my central thesis:

"Thus, I assert that given two people with comparable levels of intelligence and technical skills, the one who did not go to a name-brand university will be more likely to display outward signs of elitism, arrogance, and snobbery as a form of compensation for his/her lack of visible status."

i'm sorry that i didn't make it more clear up-front (and my intro about school grades wasn't the greatest choice), but the central tenet of my article is that i am comparing people "with comparable levels of intelligence and technical skills". in other words, i'm asking you to compare identical twins, one who went to a well-known university and the other who went to a lesser-known university. i'm definitely not saying that one is smarter than the other :) quite the opposite, actually ... i'm controlling for intelligence/technical-skills

i really hope that i didn't write or imply any of what you accused me of writing, namely that i somehow feel that people who didn't make it into a well-known school are "not of the top intellect" ... if i did, please please point that out, and i will immediately take down the offending portions of that article. i don't want people mis-interpreting what was meant to be a simple statement.

Re: On Elitism

#69

The blogger doth protest too much, methinks. We learn all about his academic credentials almost as soon as the blog post begins, but don't hear anything about his real-world accomplishments beyond attending great schools. What does everyone think of the blogger's academics page? http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/academic.htm Disclaimer: I don't know the blogger, and as far as I know I don't know any of his profession…

He's on the fast path to a research job, buried in the bowels of some company, working on middle ware. Either that or he'll simply get a teaching job at one of the schools he decries in his post.

I think you misunderstood his arguments. He did not in any way denigrate the non "name brand" schools.

Re: On Elitism

#70
post #7

> "The smartest kids in the class had reputable externally-recognizable marks of status --- their top-ranked grades on exams and homeworks --- and thus did not need to assert their intelligence." Having the top grades on exams and homework doesn't in any way demonstrate that those kids are the smartest in the class. Grades are correlated with intelligence to some degree, but much more strongly correlated with work-et…

this is the author here ... since this post seems to have spawned the largest thread, hopefully i can address it at its root. i now realized that this was a horrible way to start the article, for several reasons:

1.) it makes people debate grades vs. intelligence vs. likelihood of eventual success, etc.

2.) it reminds hacker types of how schools only rewarded the teachers' pet kids who bothered doing inane homework and studying a lot for tests and didn't have proper incentives for people who liked hacking in their spare time rather than spending all their efforts trying to earn A+'s

3.) it makes people think that the point of my article is about intelligence, getting good grades, and being admitted into an elitist school

I think all of these detract from the main point of my article, which is to make a very simple claim, which i've observed to be true in my personal experiences:

"Given two people with comparable levels of intelligence and technical skills, the one with less-reputable external marks of status will be more likely to display outward signs of elitism, arrogance, and snobbery."

i guess the moral of the story is that i should be more concise in my writing ... smaller attack surface ;)

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