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A Raw Deal in Michigan

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171–180 of 201 posts

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#171
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the question was whether or not to ban lobbying, how do the benefits of lobbying stack up against the damage? That whole cost-benefit analysis thing...

Lobbying also includes when you call your representative to complain about a certain issue. So, to ban lobbying outright is to ban input from every citizen to their representative.

Nobody but a lobbyist would use "lobbying" to describe direct contact by unpaid citizens.

Is there a name for the argumentative tactic of lumping unlike things together so one can say "if you hate me you must also hate yourself"?

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My retired father-in-law who lives in a suburb of Detroit got a car that was not manufactured by the by the Big Three a couple years ago. He felt so much social pressure that he quickly returned it and got one that was. He told me that some "foreign" cars would be egged in his neighborhood. I put foreign in quotes, as big three cars are not always manufactured in the US and sometimes other cars are manufactured here.…

That is a bunch of BS, this is not Detroit of the 70s, that stuff doesn't happen. People drive foreign cars around just like any other area.

In Michigan, 79% of new cars purchased are Ford, GM, or Chrysler. In California, 22%.

http://wot.motortrend.com/patriotic-car-shopping-which-state...

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a bunch of BS, this is not Detroit of the 70s, that stuff doesn't happen. People drive foreign cars around just like any other area.

In Michigan, 79% of new cars purchased are Ford, GM, or Chrysler. In California, 22%. http://wot.motortrend.com/patriotic-car-shopping-which-state...

Yes, of course there is going to be more, people usually work for those companies and get discounts. Vandalism, aggression, nope.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

You know what's also a good way to bring issues into 'the arena'? People's initiatives. Democracy is only really a stable system that can protect civil rights if you go all the way with it. There shouldn't be a law that the people as a whole cannot throw out. Otherwise a political system is not worth being called 'democracy' (= reign of the people). The government is supposed to be serving the people as a whole, not…

Democracy != Republic

Look at how screwed up California is due to the ability of propositions to be enacted without any concern for how they'll be financed.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always the same story with Lobbying. If you say "I'm giving you $1M to pass this law", it's corruption, if you say "I'm giving you $1M, but if you don't pass this law i'm going to withdraw it", then it's lobbying.

Hence, lobbying equals corruption. Period.

How do you reconcile freedom of speech with restrictions on campaign contributions. The courts have been pretty consistent in finding the various campaign finance laws to be overly broad and restrictive when it comes to the 1st Amendment.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowed by the public Well, democracy is largely bullshit so your phrase endears the democratic process with more credit than it is due. We suppose that our quality of life and our pace of change are side effects of our current leadership process. I personally suppose that is is but a partial input to a more complex contrivance of systems which have led us to where we are.

Don't be too quick to condemn democracy. Granted, most of the propaganda about the vox populi is false. But its key virtue is that it allows change of government without bloodshed. As Popper said, "We are democrats, not because the majority is always right, but because democratic traditions are the least evil ones of which we know". It's not the best system, but it's probably the least bad one.

"...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." -WLS Churchill

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#177
post #106
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobbying also includes when you call your representative to complain about a certain issue. So, to ban lobbying outright is to ban input from every citizen to their representative.

Solution: Only a candidate can pay for ads, campaigning, and the like. There is a campaign contribution cap reasonably low as your average citizen could reach it. None of these BS PACs, none of this "I'll make a large donation if you 'listen' to what I want".

The problem, of course, is that the courts have struck down similar (actually, less restrictive) laws. So it doesn't seem as though there is any path that would lead us to that from where we currently stand.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#179
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're forgetting that the auto industry received bailouts that were two orders of magnitude greater than the loan that Tesla took from the government. And, unlike the rest of the auto industry, Tesla paid back its loans, and did so ahead of time.

First, that's kind of a strawman. I didn't say that GM's bailout was a good thing, only that Tesla has also taken money from the government ( at its most dire time, I might add; had they not received those loans they'd have been insolvent for sure ). And second, even though Tesla paid back its loans, it doesn't mean the taxpayer benefitted at all from the transaction. Au contraire, by paying back the loans early, Tes…

>>I didn't say that GM's bailout was a good thing, only that Tesla has also taken money from the government ( at its most dire time, I might add; had they not received those loans they'd have been insolvent for sure

Just like the car companies, who were also bailed out at their most dire time. Except the car companies declared bankruptcy anyway due to gross mismanagement and horrible business practices. From wikipedia: "In September 2008, the Big Three asked for $50 billion to pay for health care expenses and avoid bankruptcy and ensuing layoffs, and Congress worked out a $25 billion loan.[85] By December, President Bush had agreed to an emergency bailout of $17.4 billion to be distributed by the next administration in January and February.[86] In early 2009, the prospect of avoiding bankruptcy by General Motors and Chrysler continued to wane as new financial information about the scale of the 2008 losses came in. Ultimately, poor management and business practices forced Chrysler and General Motors into bankruptcy. Chrysler filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on May 1, 2009 [87] followed by General Motors a month later.[88]"

>>And second, even though Tesla paid back its loans, it doesn't mean the taxpayer benefitted at all from the transaction.

There are an incredible number of government-business transactions that the taxpayer does not directly benefit from. In Tesla's case, I'd argue that the benefits were actually there. You may not be able to afford one of their cars, but having a high-tech electric car company enter the market and succeed against well-entrenched incumbents is in everyone's best interest. You may disagree but I think you'd (fortunately) be in the minority.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#180
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a very cold place with weather comparable to Norway. There are lots of problems when it comes to dealing with cars in the winter. I have no doubt that Tesla could be a decent choice for a car, but it makes perfect sense to be a bit wary about electric vehicles manufactured in California sunshine, especially if you don't have a garage to store the car in. In addition to battery life and cabin heating issues,…

The irony in your last point, is that an electric vehicle is objectively far simpler than an internal combustion powered one.

It could be much simpler, but practically speaking, electric vehicles have many more complicated features when compared to affordable ICE vehicles.
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