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A Raw Deal in Michigan

teslamotors.com

131–140 of 201 posts

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#131
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is not speech, despite the Citizens United ruling.

So Congress could set limits on how much money the New York Times could spend to cover federal elections?

News coverage of federal elections is vastly different than candidate advocacy.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may get me downvoted, but I think the problem has more to do with the voters than the politicians. If people took the time to research candidates and issues independently instead of voting for whoever had the loudest ads, we might not see so much money in politics. Also, they're lazy and they don't care. Nerds on HN do, but talk to normal folks and they just. don't. care. about much of anything political, and th…

I'm first to call out all the bullshit general population believes in, but in this case I think it is counterproductive to blame people. Behind all politicians there is a system designed to optimize for deceiving the electorate into believing what the politicians want. Millions if not billions of dollars and man-hours are spent every year to improve that system (that's not counting the private research branch known a…

But the electorate could at least do some simple mathematics and rudimentary cost-benefit analysis. Why does the US spend disproportionately more addressing (supposedly) terrorism than it does road safety? Why do people fear crime when it's at historically low levels? Why can politicians get elected by making economically, or even mathematically, impossible promises? I think that at some point you have to consider whether the voter is complicit in the situation the US is in by being wantonly, even willfully, ignorant.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#133

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Oh, get of your high horse. In the Netherlands it's done via mutual favors, usually in the form of cushy and insanely overpaid jobs for former politicians and civil servants in exchange for favorable laws and government contracts. This happens openly in a way that would be called scandalous corruption in Germany. In the Netherlands, we call what happens in other countries corruption and think our own shit doesn't sme…

Well, I'm from the US, and it stinks like corruption of a particularly obvious sort. He can stay on his high horse all he likes.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence, lobbying equals corruption. Period.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

You know what's also a good way to bring issues into 'the arena'? People's initiatives. Democracy is only really a stable system that can protect civil rights if you go all the way with it. There shouldn't be a law that the people as a whole cannot throw out. Otherwise a political system is not worth being called 'democracy' (= reign of the people). The government is supposed to be serving the people as a whole, not just a few financially strong and powerful groups.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#135

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

> Telsa isn't going to get much traction here until they improve cold weather battery performance.

are you joking? Toronto has plenty of Teslas and they work just fine.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#136
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cold weather performance is trumpeted a lot by EV detractors, but the number one selling new car in Norway last month was the Tesla Model S. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/08/tesla-norway-idUSL... Here's an interesting interview from Elon Musk about the Tesla battery winter performance. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/01/interview-with-elon-musk...

I live in a very cold place with weather comparable to Norway. There are lots of problems when it comes to dealing with cars in the winter. I have no doubt that Tesla could be a decent choice for a car, but it makes perfect sense to be a bit wary about electric vehicles manufactured in California sunshine, especially if you don't have a garage to store the car in. In addition to battery life and cabin heating issues,…

The irony in your last point, is that an electric vehicle is objectively far simpler than an internal combustion powered one.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#137
post #106
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobbying also includes when you call your representative to complain about a certain issue. So, to ban lobbying outright is to ban input from every citizen to their representative.

Solution: Only a candidate can pay for ads, campaigning, and the like. There is a campaign contribution cap reasonably low as your average citizen could reach it. None of these BS PACs, none of this "I'll make a large donation if you 'listen' to what I want".

What happens in the rich candidate vs poorer candidate elections then? The richer one would get a lot more viewership and exposure, increasing his chances to win.

It doesn't solve the problem.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#138
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

This just came up in another comment on HN: http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...

I watched the whole thing waiting for his proposed solution. There are plenty of people that at the end of that talk would be willing to give of themselves (time and money) to fix the problem. So what does he give us?

? I dunno, love or something

This is so disappointing. If we really cared, then wouldn't it be worth starting with a strategy, a plan with steps that could result in a solution? Drumming up enthusiasm to do "something" without a call to action is just raising awareness nonsense.

Of course, if we did have a plan to stop corruption, very powerful people would likely oppose it. The amount of money held by those that would be hurt by fixing campaign finance is staggering and they are probably not willing to to restrain themselves ethically from doing whatever it takes to prevent reform.

So there's that too.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#139
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible the Big 3 would actually prefer a Tesla-like direct-to-consumer model; for example, Chrysler tried opening a Chrysler-owned store in LA a few years ago, only to have it shot down by local law. I'd imagine that if one of the Big 3 started doing direct sales, dealers would stop selling their cars en masse. There's no way for an established manufacturer to stop selling to dealers.

Dealers are nice because they hold inventory on their books instead of the manufacturers. Tesla doesn't care about that much because they don't have any inventory.

So charge customers more who want to take a vehicle off the lot vs waiting for it to be produced on demand. If there is a cost, pay for it if you want it.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence, lobbying equals corruption. Period.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

  There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to 
  bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would 
  otherwise normally be drowned out.
Lobbying is like advertising[1] in that it's a vicious cycle. If company A spends $100 on advertising, then they capture the market, and push out company B. In retaliation, company B spends $150, and company A spends $200...

In 2010, Coca-cola spent $2.9 billion on advertising. They only did that because Pepsi spent about the same amount.

"Good" lobbyists only exist because bad lobbyists exist. If you could cut the budget of every lobbying firm by 50% then nothing would change. The only thing that affects outcomes i proportional spend.

1: In fact it is advertising, to an audience segment of one.

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